No after touch? (and "hello"+first impressions)

[zerocrossing]

Hey, I'm new to the forum and the world of Moog. I've got a few synths including an ATC-1. Just unwrapped my Slim Phatty.

So, as I'm digging into it, I notice that there doesn't seem to be anyway way of assigning aftertouch to control anything. Then I see in the appendix it's not implemented... well that's sad. Maybe so sad it'll warrant a return. Aftertouch is a big part of my playing technique, and it seems very odd to have left it out. Hell, my $399 Mopho has it! What the...

I feel that Moog should really correct this oversight in a future firmware/os update. We're not talking about a cheap toy here... which also brings me to the fact that Moog wants to charge me another $69 for their VST editor (which I got working in Live to some degree even though it's not supported)? That seems pretty nickle and dimey to me. Again, the $399 MoPho, at half the price comes with a free software editor.

EDIT: I tracked down the issue and it wasn't the Phatty's fault. My Novation Remote 61 oddly seemed to have a knob stuck between two values. I'd never had an issue with it before.. a few vigorous twists fixed the issue.

Anyway, I'm digging the sound. Love the ability to overdrive the filter and get really dirty.

[EMwhite]

Filter, audio quality, build quality (usually), THAT Moog sound, yeah!

No aftertouch, limited touch sensitivity, also yeah. There are no mod-bus options for either, but there is a filter setting that can be bound to touch sensitivity but as you said, no capability for Aftertouch. You'll need a full blown Voyager for that.

Initial modulars didn't have either, Hammond also without; it's just about playing style I suppose but as you said "it's a big part of your style".

As for the jumping, I'm afraid you must have a defective unit, I've been reading here for a while and never heard of that as a bug.

Otherwise, it really is a great keyboard, just not one that you'll be able to play the same way as your other gear. For me, a synth with a keyboard has a soul; I bought an Old School Voyager over the Voyager RME for that reason. But the Slim Phatty might be an option for you and you can take the few extra hundred bucks and buy a good Midi kbd that will allow you to map Aftertouch to another CC like Wave or Filter or Modulation amount. That way you get the Moog sound with more options for control. Just a thought.

In either case, I hope you work it out and stay with Moog, over time you'll find alot within the Phatty to like.

[ricknboogie]

Moog is not like most other synths, and that can seem either good or bad, depending on your personal perspective. What it leaves out is trivial compared to what it does include, and that's the sound. You won't get that filter anywhere else, though many other makers try to simulate it. If you want the real thing, you'll have to compromise.

[Voltor07]

/edit/

I also have a bug... or maybe a defect. After a while I notice my osc octave will jump for no reason. Moving to the next patch and then going back fixes it. So I think even if I keep it, I'll probably need a new one. :/

Anyway, I'm digging the sound. Love the ability to overdrive the filter and get really dirty.

This "bug" might be caused by the synth needing time to warm up. Unlike other companies, Moog uses analog electronics that require a 10-40 minute warm up period. This is where the cost comes in. DSI uses a chip for the filter, a chip for the envelopes, a chip for the oscillators, etc. This type of digital architecture does not require a warm up time, nor is the audio created by these chips analog. You are paying for the analog signal path when you buy a Moog, not for the fancy features that other companies offer at a lower price point.

[thealien666]

Sorry to disagree with you Voltor07, but in DSI instruments there is one analog chip that provides: 1 filter+ 1 vca+ 2 digitally controlled oscillators, per voice. LFOs, envelopes, modulation matrix, are all digitally created in memory by software.

In old Sequential Circuits instruments however, like the Prophet 5 (rev3), there was indeed one dedicated Curtis chip for the LFO, one for each envelopes generators, one for each VCO, one for each VCF, and one for each VCA. (the same Curtis chips used in the Memorymoog by the way) But Dave Smith Instruments use one modernized version of the CEM3396 chip (PA397) and one PA381(final voice level VCA) per voice. As can be seen here:

http://prophet08.com/prophet08/6.jpg

And even though the Moog Slim Phatty is mostly analog and needs time to warm-up, it shouldn't jump one complete octave on its own, unless there's an unwanted bit flipping in the micro-controller driving the analog side of things.
He obviously has a defective unit, and should return it to the store for an exchange. Or perhaps in his case a refund...

[Voltor07]

Sorry to disagree with you Voltor07, but in DSI instruments there is one analog chip that provides: 1 filter+ 1 vca+ 2 digitally controlled oscillators, per voice. LFOs, envelopes, modulation matrix, are all digitally created in memory by software.

In old Sequential Circuits instruments however, like the Prophet 5 (rev3), there was indeed one dedicated Curtis chip for the LFO, one for each envelopes generators, one for each VCO, one for each VCF, and one for each VCA. (the same Curtis chips used in the Memorymoog by the way) But Dave Smith Instruments use one modernized version of the CEM3396 chip (PA397) and one PA381(final voice level VCA) per voice. As can be seen here:

http://prophet08.com/prophet08/6.jpg

And even though the Moog Slim Phatty is mostly analog and needs time to warm-up, it shouldn't jump one complete octave on its own, unless there's an unwanted bit flipping in the micro-controller driving the analog side of things.
He obviously has a defective unit, and should return it to the store for an exchange. Or perhaps in his case a refund...

Ok, thanks for the corrections. However, digitally controlled oscillators are not analog, as Kevin Lightner has explained in previous posts.

[thealien666]

Ok, thanks for the corrections. However, digitally controlled oscillators are not analog, as Kevin Lightner has explained in previous posts.

You're welcome. And, again, I'll have to disagree with you and Kevin.

A DCO definitely is producing an analog voltage generated waveform.
Analog voltage-controlled oscillators for electronic music are based on a capacitor charging linearly in an op-amp integrator configuration. When the capacitor charge reaches a certain level, a comparator generates a reset pulse, which discharges the capacitor and the cycle begins again. This produces a rising ramp (or sawtooth) waveform, and this type of oscillator core is known as a ramp core.

The typical DCO design replaces the comparator in the ramp core with reset pulses generated from a counter or microprocessor. This gives the design digital frequency stability, whilst retaining a TRUE analogue waveform output. Aside from the way reset pulses are generated, the typical VCO ramp core and the DCO are identical. Both produce a ramp waveform from which other waves are derived by waveshaping. This is exactly the type of DCO used in the Roland Juno 106 and DSI synths.

It's a common misconception that a DCO is a digital oscillator. They sound less "analog" due to their much improved stability or, if you prefer, the lack of frequency drift that creates constantly varying subtle frequency detuning between multiple oscillators in a VCO system. What is called a NCO (numerically controlled oscillator) IS a real digital oscillator using a binary phase accumulator (much like the ones in the famous SID chip from Commodore designed by Bob Yannes who later went on to create the Ensoniq synth company). But there weren't many music synths (to my knowledge) that used such a design, as "romplers" (one cycle waveforms as in the Korg DW8000, and later longer samples in other machines) were much easier and less costly to implement.

[goldphinga]

Just to clarify- the 'bug' was in fact caused by his midi controller sending midi octave change info- lesson- always disconnect all other gear first and then test!

[Spitfire]

The alien,

That was very, very educational. I'm going to read your post a few more times... I've learned something new today about synths thanks to you.

Cheers!

[zerocrossing]

/edit/

I also have a bug... or maybe a defect. After a while I notice my osc octave will jump for no reason. Moving to the next patch and then going back fixes it. So I think even if I keep it, I'll probably need a new one. :/

Anyway, I'm digging the sound. Love the ability to overdrive the filter and get really dirty.

This "bug" might be caused by the synth needing time to warm up. Unlike other companies, Moog uses analog electronics that require a 10-40 minute warm up period. This is where the cost comes in. DSI uses a chip for the filter, a chip for the envelopes, a chip for the oscillators, etc. This type of digital architecture does not require a warm up time, nor is the audio created by these chips analog. You are paying for the analog signal path when you buy a Moog, not for the fancy features that other companies offer at a lower price point.

I'm aware of the VCO/DCO differences, though I'm not sure I share your opinion that DCO based analog synths are not analog. If they were someone would have come up with a VA by now that perfectly emulated some of the old 80s DCO based synths, and as far as I'm concerned they haven't. I also have an ATC-1 which is a very fine synth for the money and I am aware of the difference in sound, but to me it's just a difference and I find things to like about each type. But I digress..

If you see, I edited my original post because I did track down the OSC octave issue. It was a weird thing where the MIDI controller I was using to test the Phatty, a Novation Remote 61 had a knob that was kind of "stuck" between values. A few good twists resolved the issue and now I'm up and running trouble free.

I still stand by my opinions on the editor and aftertouch though. I think it would be a good thing for Moog if they coupled their ol'school style synthesis with modern connivence's.... well not like aftertouch is "modern" in any way. You get the idea though.

[zerocrossing]

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I find myself avoiding the Slim Phatty primarily because it does not respond to simple aftertouch messages. Seems like such a simple thing... a basic feature. Every other hardware synth I own responds to it.

Can someone let me know if this will ever happen? If not, I'll move on and replace it.

[Voltor07]

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I find myself avoiding the Slim Phatty primarily because it does not respond to simple aftertouch messages. Seems like such a simple thing... a basic feature. Every other hardware synth I own responds to it.

Can someone let me know if this will ever happen? If not, I'll move on and replace it.

If you want aftertouch, get a Voyager. The Phatties do not respond to aftertouch.

[Sir Nose]

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I find myself avoiding the Slim Phatty primarily because it does not respond to simple aftertouch messages. Seems like such a simple thing... a basic feature. Every other hardware synth I own responds to it.

Can someone let me know if this will ever happen? If not, I'll move on and replace it.

You could also use a midi event processor to change the aftertouch message sent from your controller to a CC for the parameter(s) on the phatty you want aftertouch control over.