Voyager making life difficult

Tips and techniques for Minimoog Analog Synthesizers
Lux_Seeker
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Post by Lux_Seeker » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:06 am

The Sound of Modulars

This is what I would like a modular to sound like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rnIfw-49gA

When I listen to modulars I only occasionally hear something close to these sounds. There are a few reason why I find Subotnick's work different than most stuff I hear coming from modulars. First, Subotnick favored (perhaps exclusively) Buchlas. A Buchla was used for Sidewinder as well.

Another reason is that Buchla used what he called "ghost tracks" which were like CVs but recorded on tape (several channels). Not so different than MOTUs "Volta" but back before anything like that was possible.

A third reason is that his ghost tracks would use an envelope follow and frequency follower to shape the sounds. One of the reason I would love to see some sort of frequency follower on a fooger. He would even use things like his own vocalizations to shape synthetic sounds which gave a natural sound to them

The forth reason is that Buchla's use vactrols. Vactrols, much like human vocalizations, are based on something physical, in this case, the properties of the diode and photo cell in the vactrol. Vactrols can sing very well. If you have any kind of expression pedal input and are hady with a soldering iron, buy a photocell at radio shack, solder on end of a patch cord to the photocell, plug it in and then take a flashlight (as bright as possible), turn the lights down or off and you will find you have a new instrument

I bought some vactrrols for this reason and when I get a chance I am going to make my own vactrol gate. You don't always need modulars to do these things and to add something unique to sound.


On the M3

I guess I don't really agree that the M3 is thin. Perhaps you can get a sense from that or other Korgs because of their sample library. Lets face it, most of the digital synths that are produced these days are computers running samples. The basis of some of their advestising is which has the better piiano sound (like the M3 and the Motiff). The sample is going to sound like what was recorded along with some coloration from how it was recorded. Sometimes, this coloration can be signifant. Case and point, Spectrasonics Omnisphere which even makes a burning piano sound good.

I knew what I was getting with the M3 and what I wanted was a solid set of sounds to chose from and layter together but also shape without having my CPU suffer brain freeze (which happns a lot with my computer). Sometimes I wish I had a oscilliscope which goes flatline so I can no when I have to reboot. This is by the way one of the reasons I also want that Macbook.

Many instruments that may sound thin can be colored. Tube base EQ is one or pre-amping before sampling. The placement of mics is, I am sure, a big part of why Omnisphere also sounds good in much the same way that yes, you can make dance music with a coke bottle.

The reason Voyagers sound fat is that they are analogue. You can sample a Voyager with an M3, a Motiff, Native Instrument Kontakt or any other sampler and its going to sound like a Voyager. Why? Because you can sample it directly. Granted, there are some sampling issues, headroom, noise, ect., but the problem is that you only get the sounds that you sample.

Pink Floyd used the K2000 not because it has fat sawtooths but because they could sample all of their traditional sounds and also get new ones. They also were impressed that "On the Run" could be sequenced almost pefectly on a K2000. At a concert they just let one run and walked off the stage during "On the Run". What disappoints me is that from the Wall forward, the analogue sound of Pink Floyd really disappeared. To me, the best work of Rick Wright and indeed Pink Floyd comes from the days they were using a VCS3 or a Minimoog or even the Prophet 5.


KARMA
To be honest, I listen to the KARMA scenes that Korg has developed and I am not really that happy with them. I praise KARMA not because of theiir presets which are not that great, as is often the case with synths, but I praise KARMA for what it can do. There are really two levels to KARMA. The 1st level which used what are called GE or generated efffects and then the software that creates them.

KARMA is a great way to create sequences of notes in ways that are not easy to do on a keyboard such as simulating the strumming of a guitar using a ribbon controller. The manual for M3s KARMA implementation is a few hundred pages (actually part of the lenghy parameter manual). KARMA is not that complex but it has many options and ways of doing things.

KARMA MIDI can also be sent to MIDI devices like the M3 and the MIDI Murf. It does not take to long to see lots of possibltiies.


Zebra 2

Zebra is also an example of another synth that I think is underated. I also would challenge Access in saying that whatever the Virus can do Zebra can do and much more (I agree with that comment + more). I am not going to use Zebra instead of a Voyager but if you are talking anlalogue emulation, Zebra does very solid job. And power? Virus can't hold a candle to the kind of thngs that Zebra can do.


Back to the Voyager
So, when all is said and done, I guess the question is why do I want a
Voyager. I guess the same reason that I would not mind having a Gibson ES-335 or 135 perhaps one of these days. Its a great instrument. But there are other times I would use a Telecaster or a Strat. Each have their own sound. They also have a character to them. I find that the M3 has and so does Voyager. I can exploit that character in my music.

Does a modular have character? Not really. You can mix match modules right? In the end they are a bunch of tools thrown together. With some talent, perhaps they have conherence and form but I think it takes some great skill like a Morton Subotnicks to make them sing. The Voyager has a great voice but it does not have to be coaxed. That is why the Minimoog was so sucessfull. It sounded good out of the box like a fine guitar.

If I were to look for a vocalist for a band, I would favor natural raw talent with a few rough edges over a trained voice like an opera singer who may also be very high maintenance. In may ways I see modulars that way. They are high maintenance and I want to spend more time making music than figuring out the timing of triggers on modules.

Take the human voice. We use it everyday but its capable of such great range and in fact is a form of natural synthesizer. It has an oscillator, the voice box, the filters (mouth, tongue, teeth, ect), you can shape the envelope of the filters and volume. You can modulate it (many vocalists do to great effect). And yet, the basic set of presets if what we have by learning to speak and whatever singing we learn to do. But for those who want to dig into the programming of it, it can be so very beautiful.

So I guess what I am saying is looking beyond the presets and once again, technical specs and opera singers really don't impress me much but he pure and natural voice of an instrument like a Voyager I can use in my virtual band any time.

jon_kull
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Post by jon_kull » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:00 am

Subtronik wrote:Man.. now I'm jealous, I wish my Voyager had cocobolo. How'd you get that anyway? At first I thought it was photoshopped to enhance the coloring but now I see it's how it really looks.
It's by a company called synthwood. They make custom wood cases/end panels for synths.
That sucks. I read about those Virus Ti problems a few months ago. Such a beautiful machine should work better than that. I'll still eventually get one. Everyone says a Virus compliments a Voyager nicely.
I really liked the Virus and have thought about getting another one at some point. It's not as buggy anymore so it's probably safe to get one.
You know your softsynths. Zebra is a monster. I found a great randomizer for Zerbra that easily makes bizarre and beautiful sounds: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=203929
I'll have to check that out. Minimonsta is a great plugin too. I don't own it but I've used it before.

Bryan T
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Post by Bryan T » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:35 am

Lux_Seeker wrote:This is what I would like a modular to sound like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rnIfw-49gA
Funny, I've been listening to that piece a lot recently. I haven't heard the Voyager produce sounds like that. Can it?

jon_kull
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Post by jon_kull » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:07 am

Bryan T wrote:
Lux_Seeker wrote:This is what I would like a modular to sound like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rnIfw-49gA
Funny, I've been listening to that piece a lot recently. I haven't heard the Voyager produce sounds like that. Can it?
No. :D

Though I'm willing to be proved wrong here.

jon_kull
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Post by jon_kull » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:29 am

Lux_Seeker wrote:The Sound of Modulars

This is what I would like a modular to sound like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rnIfw-49gA
Never really got into Subotnik. My father was a musician and into synths in the 70s-80s. Because of that I grew up listening more to people like Tomita and Wendy Carlos. I still have all his vinyl. I wonder if it's worth anything...
Lux_Seeker wrote:The forth reason is that Buchla's use vactrols.
So do a lot of other modulars these days. They've become quite commonplace. I have 6 lowpass gates and 2 vactrol based filters in mine. As a matter of fact some of the Buchla's functions are being translated to other cheaper formats already. Others will most likely come in time.
You don't always need modulars to do these things and to add something unique to sound.
Well in a sense you do. Assuming you'll use this with your Voyager...Unless you plan on modding your Voyager internally you're essentially making a lowpass gate module that you will then connect to your Voyager via patch cable and control via CV. :lol:
Does a modular have character? Not really. You can mix match modules right? In the end they are a bunch of tools thrown together
I'd agree and disagree with this...all at the same time. There are modulars that have their own sound. Buchla, Serge and Wiard come to mind. With others it's not so much the modulars that have character as the modules themselves. Modular geeks talk about individual modules the same way synth geeks talk about synths. Besides character is subjective...just like the ever elusive fatness (or phatness). The average non-synth person doesn't know what a Minimoog sounds like...they just know it sounds like a synth. It's the same with guitars. Most guitars sound the same to me and I don't understand why anyone would need more than one or two. I don't know anything about guitars though and if I was a guitar player I'd probably think differently.

I'm curious to know how you plan on implementing your lowpass gate. A lowpass gate is basically just a vactrol based VCA. How will you bypass the Voyager's internal VCA but still use it's envelopes to trigger the lowpass gate? Or will you be triggering it in a different way?

Lux_Seeker
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Post by Lux_Seeker » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:48 pm

Vactrols

On a MIDI device creating a vactrol a loss pass gate is easy if you have low pass fooger. I have a MIDI to gate. When the note goes on it closes the contacts and then at release closes them. A voltage supply is provided (batteries will do) to two leads of the vactrol in series with the gate and then the other two leads (from the photocell part of the vactrol) are plugged into the filter cuttof for the fooger.

With a Voyager the same setup can be used by using MIDI or the gate might actually work. I would have to see if the voltage level works but resitors can fix this. This way, the gate from the expansion would send voltage to the diode. The the photo cell leads can be hooked up to the cuttoff or the frequency or both with a multi from the CP-251 although I don't know if the plugs on the expansion take an expression pedal input or a voltage but a voltage can be supplied via battery.

That roughly the idea.

By the way, its easy to use photo cells to control foogers and I am sure CV devices by supplying a voltage. I have controlled foogers with them. You can do interesting things with a dark room and flashlights.


Guitars

Giuitars sound different because of their pickups, the number of the and the position but also there bodies. Even an electric is influenced by the body especially sustain. I have a Stenberger which is a low tech version of of a Moog Guitar :) Not really. But it has a trucated graphite body to add considerable sustain. Low action is also important (at least to me and others). Action is the height from the string to the fret. Low action makes the instrument easier to play and cuts down on those filnger blisters.

Pickups vary due to the number of windings and if they are stingle or double coil. The more windings the hotter the pickup (loader but more distortion). Some pickups liike my Steinberger are also pre-amped. That means you can you lhave a small number of coil windings creating a clean signal which is then preamped. The level is hot but not distorted.

My Steinberger also has active EQ. It means the tone control is more like a real EQ on an amp creating a wider range of tone.

Hollow bodies or semi hollows create a natural resonance on a guitar favored often by jazz giuitarists to create a softer sound.

Bottom line, there are many ways to change the character of the tone of a guitar and each has a kind of unique set of tones much like a module.

jon_kull
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Post by jon_kull » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:12 pm

So you're going to use the vactrol to gate the fooger. Interesting...and still a modular approach. :razz: I'd love to hear it when you finally get around to doing it. I've actually been thinking about getting the CP-251 and VX-351 to better integrate my Voyager into my modular. Right now I can control the Voyager but can't send CV from the Voyager to the Modular.

This is an aside but Ken Macbeth recently ported his M5 VCO and VCF to modular format. I'm pretty excited about this since I've always wanted an M5. Now I just need a second job and a considerable amount of talent. :lol:

http://www.macbethstudiosystems.com/mp3s/x-series1.MP3

Lux_Seeker
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Post by Lux_Seeker » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:36 pm

Yes, a modular approach. You can use a modular approach and not actually use a modular. There is more than one product out there that has CV inputs and I suspect the number is growing.

A few:

The Vermona Retroverb:

http://www.vermona.com/index.php?id=27,94,0,0,1,0

The Sherman Fitler bank:

http://www.sherman.be/

The Sherman is one that I have had my eye on for a while but with foogers, its not that practical because at least some of its functionality I have in my foogers. Plus, if I do buy a Voyager its really going to be a financial shock to my limited budget for a long while. It can also be duplicated in some sense by a series of modules and eventually, that is the way I would go.

I strongly beleive taht the line between digital, analogue modular and analogue semi modular can get blurred and lots of things can be done in a modular way. I think that is a very good thing.

Another example which at this point is only a dream product of mine, which I don't see happening soon, would be a digital version of the matrix on the VCS3. Instead of using pegs to make connections, you could do this digitally. I remember a while back someone suggested a chip that could do this. I am not enough of an electronics expert to do this but it can be done for someone with modest engineering knowledge.

There are also digitally controlled patch bays although very expensive and the Buchla 200e which has a lot digital control integrated into it and something similar to the dream system I am speaking of:

http://www.buchla.com/series200e.html

See the 200e which Buchla calls a "Control and Signal Router" which makes it sound like a mundane utility module like a multi when in reality, its not like anything I have seen anywhere else. Moog should try putting this one in CP-251 format.

So the 3 worlds are joining together slowly. Consider the MIDI MURF and Volta. I'm nto saying everthing will inegrate easliy together in the near future but these products are making small bridges right now.

I also listened to the audio link. Nice EM but something that a Voyager can defintely come close to at least.

The funny thing is that despite my stand for a semi over a full modular (well, a very musically attractive one but..) is that I am pretty modular oriented and DIY but I just don't' take the approach of building this huge modular and then wondering, ok, what do I do now.

To me, all to often, people get lost in modulars because they think top down. It's like field of dreams, build it and it will make good music. I think in terms of bottom up. I get an idea (and I have several right now that I am juggling around in my head hoping to make materialize) and then I try to make it happen technically. From idea to sound to equipement within the confines of $s.

If I had an infinite budged I would just will a warehouse with a bunch of stuff or perhaps buy a Korg OASYS, a full Buchla 200e, a Voyage, an Eventide 8000 and a heavy loaded Neko with Ableton Live, Kontakt 5 and a few other things like Altiverb and all tied together with automated patch bays. The reality is that I am not rich so I have to balance musically funtionality and my time and hope to make some good music.

So a Voyager is starting small but in limitations sometimes make for good music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FXoyr_F ... L&index=37

Not bad for all school.

jon_kull
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Post by jon_kull » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:24 pm

Lux_Seeker wrote:The Sherman is one that I have had my eye on for a while but with foogers, its not that practical because at least some of its functionality I have in my foogers. Plus, if I do buy a Voyager its really going to be a financial shock to my limited budget for a long while. It can also be duplicated in some sense by a series of modules and eventually, that is the way I would go.
The Sherman is a nice piece of gear. I've never owned one but have seen/heard what people do with them. The Voyager is definitely expensive but well worth it. Out of all the gear I've owned it was the only synth I knew was a good purchase the second I plugged it in. As much as I love my modular now the first month I owned it was filled with a lot of second guessing on my choice. Same with my Andromeda. It took me months to like that synth now I wouldn't part with it...but the Voyager just made me smile with the first key press.
Lux_Seeker wrote:Another example which at this point is only a dream product of mine, which I don't see happening soon, would be a digital version of the matrix on the VCS3. Instead of using pegs to make connections, you could do this digitally. I remember a while back someone suggested a chip that could do this. I am not enough of an electronics expert to do this but it can be done for someone with modest engineering knowledge.
I wonder if this is the kind of thing that could be done with MAX, a Monome and Ardunio in some way?
Lux_Seeker wrote:I also listened to the audio link. Nice EM but something that a Voyager can defintely come close to at least.
Well it should be able to. Those VCOs and the filter are 'inspired' by the Mini even though the M5 looked like a modern take on the Arp 2600.
Lux_Seeker wrote:The funny thing is that despite my stand for a semi over a full modular (well, a very musically attractive one but..) is that I am pretty modular oriented and DIY but I just don't' take the approach of building this huge modular and then wondering, ok, what do I do now.
That's what I find interesting because you seem (and I really only know you through your posts here) like someone that would be perfectly suited to using a modular but you have a way of approaching things that's different from what the obvious solution would be and good reasons for why. I personally would have never thought to build a lowpass gate by connecting a vactrol to a Fooger for example. When I found myself starting to become interested in things that modulars can do my thought was 'I need a modular' rather than how can I bring some of that functionality to the gear I already have.
Lux_Seeker wrote:To me, all to often, people get lost in modulars because they think top down. It's like field of dreams, build it and it will make good music.
I think that was my first month of owning one...'OK, what now?'. Once I figured out how to use it my approach started to become more bottom up.
Lux_Seeker wrote:If I had an infinite budged I would just will a warehouse with a bunch of stuff or perhaps buy a Korg OASYS, a full Buchla 200e, a Voyage, an Eventide 8000 and a heavy loaded Neko...
If I had an infinite budget I'd own my own island. Seriously though I'd probably be surrounded by Buchla. I'd take your list minus the Neko and replace it with a Kyma Pacarana. But I'm not rich so that's not going to happen...

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Post by Just Me » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:17 pm

I have a modular under construction. Right now I'm using it as more processing for the Moog oscillators. (Oscillators are on the end of my build list. Modifiers come first for me.) I've always had or used modular or semi modular synths. They can be musical or not. Just like any of my other synths. A JX3-P can be programmed to make bleeps and bloops and clicks that are atonal, or to make pretty decent 'synthlike' sounds.
Now to me, most experimental music is just bleeps and bloops and I don't care what machine was used to make it. The same equipment can also make what I would consider more 'musical' noise. I have yet to hear anything from Subotnick that I can listen all the way through. Froese I can listen to all day. Different strokes for different tastes.
(One of the wildest 'experimental' instruments I've seen was some springs and rubberbands stretched over a wood box with a mic in it and run through some guitar pedals and reverbs/delays. All sorts of interesting screeches and sproings. Still not music to me, but fun to watch once.)
I am just about 2 or 3 boards from having MY ultimate setup. It should all be less than 5-6000 more to spend. And there will still be NO computer used in my studio. (Just the processors in my keyboards)
So, I guess where I was going was. It doesn't matter what it is, it can be used musically or not. [A comb can be used to make music or rake your hair.]
"Music expresses that which can not be said and on which it is impossible to be silent."

Lux_Seeker
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Post by Lux_Seeker » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:42 pm

I think that defining any category of music be it "experimental" or otherwise is a rather problatic thing to try to do. How I would position my music is along the lines of the 20th century Avant Guarde, music concrete and then early EM. Of course, I am also influenced by later artists like Brian Eno and to a minor extent Subotnick but to be honest, I have a hard time producing his sounds.

What I would say about Subotnick is that his bleep and bloops, if that is what you prefer to call them, are strutured in rather complex ways. the sounds themselves are the the usual beeps and bloops for well designed sounds intended to fit into a composition. Some may not here this but clearly Subotnick slaved over every apect, every sound, in his compostiions.

But I would have to agree that much of experimental music iis bleep ans bloops.

There is also "electro-acoustic" music more oriented towards processing and re-organizing sounds. I do this as well although in some works more than others.

Music ultimately is subjective. Some like dance music and disco, some like hip hop and rap. I don't. I also don't like techo and house or any of the other kinds of music that come out of the dance scene. I guess the mold I use is to use no mold at all other than to have a concept in my mind before I create something.

Whatever tools get me there are the ones I will use, modular, semi-modular or digital.

Lux_Seeker
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Post by Lux_Seeker » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:47 pm

Jon, great post but time for me to sleep. I will post more tommorow.

Subtronik
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Post by Subtronik » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:43 pm

Just Me wrote:there will still be NO computer used in my studio. (Just the processors in my keyboards)
:shock:

How do you record?

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Voltor07
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Post by Voltor07 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:52 pm

Subtronik wrote:
Just Me wrote:there will still be NO computer used in my studio. (Just the processors in my keyboards)
:shock:

How do you record?
Tape. That's how I record, anyway. Haven't quite gotten the technique down for recording onto my MacBook without clipping. :?
Minitaur, CP-251, EHX #1 Echo, EHX Space Drums/Crash Pads, QSC GX-3, Pyramid stereo power amp, Miracle Pianos, Walking Stick ribbon controller, Synthutron.com, 1983 Hammond organ, dot com modular.

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Post by Just Me » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:37 am

Subtronik wrote:
Just Me wrote:there will still be NO computer used in my studio. (Just the processors in my keyboards)
:shock:

How do you record?
A pair of Otari tape decks and an Akai DR8.
"Music expresses that which can not be said and on which it is impossible to be silent."

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