S-Trigger out?

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Kevin Lightner
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Post by Kevin Lightner » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:44 pm

If you have created a S-trig to V-trig adapter, does the minimoog or micromoog produce an S-trig when you play a note on the keyboard?
A Micromoog has an S-trig out (and S-trig input), while a Mini only has an S-trig in.
But if an adaptor is used on a Micro, it will fill that single S-trig out jack and no other trigger output will be available.

On a Mini, it provides no S-trig out, but actually works internally on V-trigs both in and out.
The single S-trig input jack is converted by the Mini itself for use as a V-trig internally.
So if a Mini was modded, it's completely possible to have V-trigs in, out and even keep the S-trig input or add an S-trig output.
So you could plug into the s-trig and when a note is depressed, the s-trig on back is shorted?
On the Micro, yes.
However technically the S-trig is going from a high state to ground.
That's the same as shorting it for most practical purposes, at least for an input.
As an S-trig output however, one actually gets a constant voltage on the S-trig out with it going to ground during a key press.
Not sure if this helps your understanding, but it's a tech explanation of what happens.
It's actually an inverted S-trigger.
The "S" stands for short or switch, which is what the early Moog modular keyboards provided via a relay (a switch.)
Also, if you are wanting to both trigger a gate on say a sequencer and receive a s-trig signal from the sequencer, (a Roland CSQ-600 in my instance) could you somehow use the same s-trig jack on the mini or micromoog, or is this a one way (in only) connection?
Generally S-trigs can't be multed reliably.
Each connection added can, depending on the synth, raise or lower the threshold for triggering properly.
If it is an "in only" connection, what connection would you use to create the s-trig out that is then converted to the gate and on into the sequencer (or controlling a gate in on another synth)?
My advice is to avoid S-trigs altogether.
Have any and all S-trig equipped instruments modded to send and/or receive V-trigs.
You'll have less headaches interfacing with other gear.
Sorry if this answer suggests additional expense for a tech.
But as your system grows you'll appreciate not having headaches when interfacing with other, non-Moog gear.

It should also be noted that a Minimoog model D is not at its best when controlled via the OSC CV input and the S-trig in.
Incoming CVs to that jack do not get processed through the Moog's glide, nor presented to the orange filter keyboard tracking switches.

When I mod Minis for external control, I will usually make incoming signals replace the keyboard signals.
That is, keyboard CV is replaced by external CV and keyboard gate (a V-trig), replaced by an external V-trig input.
That way very little is actually changed in the Mini and all external control is treated as if it was the Mini's keyboard providing them.
The Mini doesn't know whether it's a keyboard or external control then.

Electrong
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Post by Electrong » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:08 pm

Wow. Thanks Kevin. I was missing the point about the Mini because internally it utilizes V-trig anyway? How difficult would it be for a local tech to perform this mod? What about me? Minimal soldering skills, etc.

And, would the rest of the synth remain the same, the S-trig and other jacks, or would you simply be replacing those jackss to perform the Gate and CV functions? I'm concerned about reversability and originality but in particular I do not want to drill the back panel as this is an old Mini and I'm wanting it to remain otherwise original, which is why I was asking about all these adapter plugs in the first place.

This also begs the question: Why did Moog use the S-trig system in the first place, if internally they're V-trigs?

Also, you said "On a Mini, it provides no S-trig out, but actually works internally on V-trigs both in and out. " Does it work this way on a Micro as well; that is, does a Micro utilize internal V-trigs both in and out, as well?

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MC
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Post by MC » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:42 pm

Electrong wrote:This also begs the question: Why did Moog use the S-trig system in the first place, if internally they're V-trigs?
Because you could use something as simple as a footswitch (requires no power) to trigger an S-trig system. You can't do that on a V-trig system without an active circuit and a power source.
Also, you said "On a Mini, it provides no S-trig out, but actually works internally on V-trigs both in and out. " Does it work this way on a Micro as well; that is, does a Micro utilize internal V-trigs both in and out, as well?
That's pretty much true on any analog synth.

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CZ Rider
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Post by CZ Rider » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:30 pm

MC wrote: Because you could use something as simple as a footswitch (requires no power) to trigger an S-trig system. You can't do that on a V-trig system without an active circuit and a power source.
Yep, I remember back in the 70's wiring up one of those magnetic door switches to the S-trig jack on the Mini. :lol: Patched up a loud pink noise sound to go off when someone opened the door. DIY switches were easy to make. I also had an automotive toggle SPST, that the blades lined up with the Cinch jack. The lever stuck up a bit just behind the wood rail on top,and would just flip it to get the Mini to drone.
Another advantage of the S-trigger system is it is bi-directional. It not only recieves an S-trigger but also sends one. Tried it on my Mini, Modular, Rogue, Prodigy. Connect a male to male 2-prong Cinch from your Mini to a Prodigy and either keyboard will trigger the other, so they are not only inputs but also outputs too! I have my Prodigy and a Taurus 2 module triggered together this way. Play the Prodigy keyboard, it triggers the Taurus 2, and if you hit the auto-trigger on the Taurus the Prodigy will sound. The Micro/Multimoog differ from this arangement, probably due to the S&H Auto mode circuit.
Not many realize these are indeed bi-directional triggers. Try it!

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Kevin Lightner
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Post by Kevin Lightner » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:35 pm

As a service to Moog modular owners, please don't try this... ;-)
Not many realize these are indeed bi-directional triggers. Try it!

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CZ Rider
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Post by CZ Rider » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:35 am

Kevin Lightner wrote:As a service to Moog modular owners, please don't try this... ;-)
Not many realize these are indeed bi-directional triggers. Try it!
Back of the Prodigy, clearly labled S-trig in/out. Bi-directional.
Image
Doesn't matter if it is producing the ground or receiving the ground, the result is the same - it fires the envelope generators. Works the same way with the Rogue, Taurus 2, Minimoog, and Moog modular that I own. I have been doing it for years with no explosions. :lol:
I had a long discussion with David Borden about this very subject not long ago. Now, David could tell you a few stories about the early days patching inputs into outputs. :lol:

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Voltor07
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Post by Voltor07 » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:47 am

CZ Rider wrote: Now, David could tell you a few stories about the early days patching inputs into outputs. :lol:
Those are stories I'd like to hear! What happens when an out gets patched to an out? Does the patch cord explode? Does one module get fried? Do both modules get fried? An in to an in does nothing. That's obvious. :?
Minitaur, CP-251, EHX #1 Echo, EHX Space Drums/Crash Pads, QSC GX-3, Pyramid stereo power amp, Miracle Pianos, Walking Stick ribbon controller, Synthutron.com, 1983 Hammond organ, dot com modular.

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Kevin Lightner
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Post by Kevin Lightner » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:50 am

Since when is a Prodigy a Moog modular? :)

It may well work with a Prodigy and likely several other Moogs, but it won't work with all Moogs.
I'm not sure the Polymoog would do it either.
I DO know that trying it on a 961 or 911A won't produce success.
Likely other Moog modules as well.
I had a long discussion with David Borden about this very subject not long ago. Now, David could tell you a few stories about the early days patching inputs into outputs
All fine, but just because something works, doesn't always mean it's correct.
I somehow doubt David is cozy with how much current all Moog products source or sink when this technique is attempted.
He's a musician, not an engineer or tech.
So all good, do it yourself. But please don't make blanket statements that all S-trigs are bi-directional.
They're not.

Electrong
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Post by Electrong » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:44 am

CZ Rider wrote:I have been doing it for years with no explosions. :lol:
That's "comforting" to know! :lol:

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MC
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Post by MC » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:21 pm

On an integrated synth like the Prodigy it is not hard to implement bi-directional S-triggers. Minimoog doesn't work that way though, and it's physically impossible on a modular with synth functions separated throughout.

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CZ Rider
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Post by CZ Rider » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:42 am

Voltor07 wrote:
CZ Rider wrote: Now, David could tell you a few stories about the early days patching inputs into outputs. :lol:
Those are stories I'd like to hear! What happens when an out gets patched to an out? Does the patch cord explode? Does one module get fried? Do both modules get fried? An in to an in does nothing. That's obvious. :?
You have to first look up David Borden. Image
One of the founders of electronic music, was a resident musician at the Moog factory back in the late 60's. His band Mother Mallard's Portable Masterpiece Co. predated Tangerine Dream. David was the first person to ever play a Minimoog live on stage. Here is a 5 min video where David explains his connection with Moog, with thier music, and quite a few old Moog clips ending in a live concert.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXSKXRaM4-E
I meet with David after a live MMPMC concert they did in Philly. To my surprise David was a gear head! We spoke for about 45 minuts or so. I wish I had a tape recorder because he gave me a first hand history of Moog's early years as I have never heard before.
David's first story was about his introduction to Bob and the Moog factory. David was learning the Moog modular there, spending time patching on one of the modulars at the factory. Admittedly no knowing what he was doing, some how managed to make the modular smoke with one of his bizzare patches. He said all of the techs gathered around it mumbling we have to get Bob. Well David was sweating bullets, as a Moog modular was one very expensive instrument, especially in 1967 dollars. So Bob came in, looked it over with the other techs. After a few moments went up to David and handed him a set of keys to the factory. David was told he could come in any time to patch/play the modulars. David was the official modular test person, and claims to be the one responsible for Moog bullet-proofing the modular patching system. So David was the master at making incorect patches in the begining. He later became very good at patching!
Another story was the early development of the Minimoog. The sales reps had two model B Minimoogs they were demonstrating for future sales. David said one day Bob just gave one away to Sun Ra. The sales guys were shocked. David laughed and said "That's Bob".
I even asked David a question that no one ever answered, "Who invented the wheel". Can't remember the name, but he said this guy upstairs that worked in plastics made the first ones. The model C just had sliders, the D had the wheels, and an important invention at that. Where would we be without wheels?
Another interesting fact was he said he had given one of his 901 oscillators to the Alesis techs developing the Andromeda. Some time latter they sent him one of the first units made for his donation.
Quite an interesting fellow! More info on David Borden here:
http://www.mothermallard.com/

My favorite input in the output trick was probably done by accident. Try a Stratocaster output, plug into the out jack on an original Crybaby pedal. And connect the in jack on the pedal to a delay then amp. That's the sound David Gilmore used on Echo's! I think Jimi Hendrix used this too!

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CZ Rider
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Post by CZ Rider » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:44 am

Kevin Lightner wrote:So all good, do it yourself. But please don't make blanket statements that all S-trigs are bi-directional.
They're not.
I stand corrected. My apologies to you and the group!

EricK
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Post by EricK » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:48 am

Thats an interesting story.

Talk about an understanding boss. I know if someone smoked out one of my modulars I probably would have had an aneurysm right there. THen fired him about 40 times and had about 2 hernias and a charlie horse.

Bob also gave Pamelia Kurstin one of those EtherVox theremins. What a grande human being he was. I am never ceased to be impressed by the things that Bob has done for people.

Eric
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I think I hear the mothership coming.

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Kevin Lightner
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Post by Kevin Lightner » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:05 am

Another interesting fact was he said he had given one of his 901 oscillators to the Alesis techs developing the Andromeda. Some time latter they sent him one of the first units made for his donation.
If you can obtain any additional info about this, I'd be interested to hear it.
I was part of the A6 project in a minor way.
I attended the original design meeting, did some prototypes and was a beta tester.
I was paid with a red A6, which I sold before the instrument was even released to the public.
I actually had to ask the buyer not to use it that night since he was playing on the Tonight Show that evening.
If the A6 was seen then, I imagined Alesis dealers would be swamped with phone calls asking if they had stock of the instrument.

The thing that piques my curiosity though is that both Erik Norlander and Mike Peake were on the design team and owned Moog modulars.
Why didn't Alesis borrow one of theirs?
Maybe they wanted to own it outright?

A 901 is actually a very simple VCO too.
Believe it or not, the closest thing to it is a Paia 4720.
They share the same single transistor core design.
Past that, there's many differences however.

Thanks for the pic.
Always good to see Bob.

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Post by Voltor07 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:11 am

Cool story! I've always heard Bob was somewhat eccentric. I guess that proves it! :mrgreen:
Minitaur, CP-251, EHX #1 Echo, EHX Space Drums/Crash Pads, QSC GX-3, Pyramid stereo power amp, Miracle Pianos, Walking Stick ribbon controller, Synthutron.com, 1983 Hammond organ, dot com modular.

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