I'm out! Although I have enjoyed reading and posting to this site, I
have no intention of paying to continue to do so. I'll spend the 13 bucks
on a box of floppies for my digital synth!
Terry
Synth List:
Access Indigo2, Akai VX-600, Arp: Odyssey, Avatar, Omni-2, Axxe, Solus, Blue Chip OX7,Casio: CZ-101, CZ1000, CZ-3000, CZ-1 ,SK-5 ,VZ-1 ,VZ10M ,VZ8m , HZ-600, AZ-1 , MT400, PT-100, PG-380, DH-200, Clavia Nord Micromodular, Crumar Performer, Dave Smith Instruments Evolver, Doefer Maq-16/3, Elka Rapsody 490, E-Mu Morpheus, Farfisa Synorchestra, Hammond CV, X-2, L-100 Chopper, Korg: PS-3100, MS-20, MS-2000, 707, Microkorg, Prophecy, EX-800, RK-100, Wavestation A/D, DSM-1, Lag Le-Key, Lync LN-4, Moog: Minimoog model D, Voyager, Minimoog-modular, Prodigy, MG-1, Taurus II, Opus 3, Rogue, Source, Liberation, Micromoog,1130 percussion controller, 1150 Ribbon controller, Custom 1150 ribbon Guitar, Songproducer, CP-251, VX-351, Etherwave Theramin, MOTM four voice modular, NED Synclavier II,Novation: Bass Station Rack, MM-10X, Oberheim: Two Voice, OB-1, SEM, Matrix 1000, OB-3, Octave Cat SRM, PAIA: Strings N Things, Gnome, Polyfusion 2058 polyphonic controller, Roland: SH-101, System 100M, AX-1, Axis, D-550, RS-09, Saturn 09, PMA-5, SCI: Pro-1, Prophet VS Rack, Six-trak, 700 Programer, Pro-64, Tama Techstar TS-305, Techstar TS-306, Technosaurus Cyclodon, Waldorf Microwave II, Microwave PC, Pulse Plus, MiniWorks 4-Pole, Micro Q Keyboard, Yamaha: CS-15, CS-20M, CS-80, DX-100, TG-33, SY-35, KX-1, KX-5, SHS-10, TQ-5, TX-802,TX81Z, SK-15 (I'm trying to cut down, Really!)
The end of Squarewave? ...the beginning of MoogSpace?
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Kevin Lightner
- Posts: 1587
- Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:20 pm
- Location: Wrightwood
Here's my perspective...
I've been giving away technical advice in emails and forums for over 10 years online.
I pay to host my site and provide schematics and info there also.
But after realizing the hours added up are a loss from tech work equal to about $10K/yr, I simply can't justify spending still more money to give away still more free advice.
My personal opinion is the Moogspace should be free, or at least free to those that have provided good sound advice or sales info to Moog users.
Members that help other members make purchase decisions are often doing the same job as what a salesman does at a retail store.
If talk on Moogspace helps any sales, especially on higher-end products like Voyagers, the profit should outweigh the need for members to pay.
Also, I don't know if Moogspace membership is included when someone purchases a new Moog product, but I feel it should be.
I've been giving away technical advice in emails and forums for over 10 years online.
I pay to host my site and provide schematics and info there also.
But after realizing the hours added up are a loss from tech work equal to about $10K/yr, I simply can't justify spending still more money to give away still more free advice.
My personal opinion is the Moogspace should be free, or at least free to those that have provided good sound advice or sales info to Moog users.
Members that help other members make purchase decisions are often doing the same job as what a salesman does at a retail store.
If talk on Moogspace helps any sales, especially on higher-end products like Voyagers, the profit should outweigh the need for members to pay.
Also, I don't know if Moogspace membership is included when someone purchases a new Moog product, but I feel it should be.
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industrial_gypsy
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:06 am
- Location: County Durham, UK
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OysterRock
- Posts: 800
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 8:52 pm
- Location: Portland, OR
- Contact:
Its interesting that you see it in such a way. The truth is that they are charging for the storage space for large music files, not enthusiasm. They are trying to promote enthusiasm by having one single place that Moog fans can share Moog related thoughts and data.industrial_gypsy wrote:Moog have no right to charge people for their enthusiasm and ongoing support in their own products.
I believe Moog's intentions are nothing but good, but I agree that there should be a free and a premium membership to Moogspace. The free membership would least allow the user to post to the forum and download files. It seems a shame to lose such a great online community over something so silly. I'm sure that the good folks at Moog have heard the concerns and will do what is right.
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Kevin Lightner
- Posts: 1587
- Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:20 pm
- Location: Wrightwood
Just to clarify, I feel Moog Music has the right to do whatever they want with their forums.
As far as storage and bandwidth, these are pretty small financial issues.
My server provides gigs of storage and high bandwidth for very low cost.
My issue is not with such charges, rather my time vs income as someone self-employed.
I think it also bears mentioning that some of the best advice comes from professionals, whether they're musicians, programmers, techs or whatever.
If Moogspace fails to attract such people, the quality and accuracy of advice provided on the forum may diminish.
As far as storage and bandwidth, these are pretty small financial issues.
My server provides gigs of storage and high bandwidth for very low cost.
My issue is not with such charges, rather my time vs income as someone self-employed.
I think it also bears mentioning that some of the best advice comes from professionals, whether they're musicians, programmers, techs or whatever.
If Moogspace fails to attract such people, the quality and accuracy of advice provided on the forum may diminish.
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OysterRock
- Posts: 800
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 8:52 pm
- Location: Portland, OR
- Contact:
I am a Moog user who likes to talk about vintage Moogs, modern Moogs, and associated analog. I enjoy this forum for that reason. However, I'm also a professional musician with my own domain that I pay a great deal more than $13 a month for. I have all of the hosting space I need... and even if I didn't, there are a lot of places that will host music, etc. for free. Being as that I basically only come here to sing praises to analog and talk to people who feel similarly, I can't justify spending any money on a service that would provide everything I already have, except nice analog-lovin' people to talk to... something which can be provided elsewhere for free. (and without marketing benefit to a specific company)
I am happy that Moog is still a company, and that they have new products, and that they seem to be doing okay. I want there to be a Moog, and I bear no resentment against them... however, let's face it: they are a business, and their goal in ALL of this is not to be our best pal, not to "help" us, not to do what we ask for, but rather to make money. Their products are expensive... I daresay more expensive than they need to be (although I do not begrudge them their prices; they charge what the market seems to bear, and provide a decent product). I mean, look at the price on their BASIC Moog T-shirt. They have already charged premium prices on their synthesizers... why do they need to charge a premium price on their t-shirt? T-shirts, in bulk, are REALLY CHEAP. They do it because THEY SEEK TO MAKE MONEY. Forums are not services companies provide because they like their customers, but rather a subtle, or not-so-subtle, means of marketing their product. This website is not here as a special gift to the faithful, but rather a way to make sure the faithful are informed about products, and inspired to KEEP BUYING THEM.
As a Moog customer, I feel that it makes GOOD MARKETING SENSE to provide benefits for your customers... it keeps them loyal. While some may take the stance of "you get a good synthesizer for the prices you pay," I don't... because it doesn't make as much marketing sense to charge premium prices for the main product, and THEN premium prices for ancilliary products and services when your base in MANY cases has to scrape to afford the product itself due to its premium price. In a situation where you are marketing a high-priced item, it makes FAR more sense to provide incentives (or perceived incentives) to those who are mad about your product. Things like forums and t-shirts and etc. are things that the company should provide at modest (which is usually FAR above cost) prices that make the customer feel supported and excited about the products. In the case of web-related-services, come ONNNN. I don't charge people to visit my website because it costs money... I pay those costs myself as an INVESTMENT IN MARKETING. There are things you're just going to have to PAY FOR as a company to market your product. Um, duh? Portraying Moog as poor victims because they have to pay for MARKETING, SERVER SPACE and WEB DESIGN... ohhh, POOR POOR MOOG. Every single company in the world has to foot the bill for such things... because, in the end, it SHOULD MAKE THEM MONEY BY PROMOTING THEIR OWN PRODUCTS TO THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED. And, keeping the loyalty of those who have bought products before.
If this forum departs, I will regret it. It will not be a smart marketing move in regard to customers like me... the ones with the knowledge, desire, and money to purchase Moog products. I am also a person who can tell you why you SHOULD buy a Moog, especially over similar products, or far less expensive digital products. You want to have a forum where I, NOT a representative of Moog, can do Moog marketing for FREE. Or, perhaps you don't.
I am happy that Moog is still a company, and that they have new products, and that they seem to be doing okay. I want there to be a Moog, and I bear no resentment against them... however, let's face it: they are a business, and their goal in ALL of this is not to be our best pal, not to "help" us, not to do what we ask for, but rather to make money. Their products are expensive... I daresay more expensive than they need to be (although I do not begrudge them their prices; they charge what the market seems to bear, and provide a decent product). I mean, look at the price on their BASIC Moog T-shirt. They have already charged premium prices on their synthesizers... why do they need to charge a premium price on their t-shirt? T-shirts, in bulk, are REALLY CHEAP. They do it because THEY SEEK TO MAKE MONEY. Forums are not services companies provide because they like their customers, but rather a subtle, or not-so-subtle, means of marketing their product. This website is not here as a special gift to the faithful, but rather a way to make sure the faithful are informed about products, and inspired to KEEP BUYING THEM.
As a Moog customer, I feel that it makes GOOD MARKETING SENSE to provide benefits for your customers... it keeps them loyal. While some may take the stance of "you get a good synthesizer for the prices you pay," I don't... because it doesn't make as much marketing sense to charge premium prices for the main product, and THEN premium prices for ancilliary products and services when your base in MANY cases has to scrape to afford the product itself due to its premium price. In a situation where you are marketing a high-priced item, it makes FAR more sense to provide incentives (or perceived incentives) to those who are mad about your product. Things like forums and t-shirts and etc. are things that the company should provide at modest (which is usually FAR above cost) prices that make the customer feel supported and excited about the products. In the case of web-related-services, come ONNNN. I don't charge people to visit my website because it costs money... I pay those costs myself as an INVESTMENT IN MARKETING. There are things you're just going to have to PAY FOR as a company to market your product. Um, duh? Portraying Moog as poor victims because they have to pay for MARKETING, SERVER SPACE and WEB DESIGN... ohhh, POOR POOR MOOG. Every single company in the world has to foot the bill for such things... because, in the end, it SHOULD MAKE THEM MONEY BY PROMOTING THEIR OWN PRODUCTS TO THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED. And, keeping the loyalty of those who have bought products before.
If this forum departs, I will regret it. It will not be a smart marketing move in regard to customers like me... the ones with the knowledge, desire, and money to purchase Moog products. I am also a person who can tell you why you SHOULD buy a Moog, especially over similar products, or far less expensive digital products. You want to have a forum where I, NOT a representative of Moog, can do Moog marketing for FREE. Or, perhaps you don't.
www.youtube.com/user/automaticgainsay
www.myspace.com/automaticgainsay2
www.myspace.com/godfreyscordialmusic
www.myspace.com/automaticgainsay2
www.myspace.com/godfreyscordialmusic
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OysterRock
- Posts: 800
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 8:52 pm
- Location: Portland, OR
- Contact:
Moogspace is $13 dollars a year, not a month.museslave wrote:However, I'm also a professional musician with my own domain that I pay a great deal more than $13 a month for.
No one is doing this. And not every company foots the bill for such things (banner ads, donations, etc.). It just simply amazes me the sense on entitlement I see sometimes. You exactly right, Moog IS a company. The won't exist unless they make money. But I guess I'm not so jaded as some because i believe there are still companies that exist that aren't driven entirely by greed.Portraying Moog as poor victims because they have to pay for MARKETING, SERVER SPACE and WEB DESIGN... ohhh, POOR POOR MOOG. Every single company in the world has to foot the bill for such things...
I am not blindly defending Moog, I agree with many of your points. It would be in Moog's best interest to make as many features as possible free, only because I know the general public won't go for it out of some misguided "principle".
All I'm saying is give it a chance and make it into the great online resource it definitely COULD be. Lets face it, this forum and the yahoo forums have been pretty dead for the past few months. This could be a very good thing to breath some life back into the discussion. So many people are quick to dismiss. Why? I don't know, but I hope it is not for some cynical idea about a company's motivation.
Oops, sorry for the typo... I knew that it was per year! My point was more about the fact that I pay a great deal of money for the space I have, an amount that far exceeds the $13 a year... but because I do, it seems pointless to pay even $13 more. However, I concede that that is for me personally. I'm sure that there are those who would benefit from the services provided.
As for my cynicism, I am very cynical... but not out of some desire to undermine Moog, or some anti-Moog bitterness... but rather their own actions as demonstrated by a $20 pricetag on an EXTREMELY simple basic tshirt silkscreen design.
Again, I'm totally in support of free enterprise... you can charge anything you like for your products... but a company has to realize that it is easy to generate contempt in a small demographic (like the analog synthesizer buying demographic) by appearing to be "in it for the money." Especially since our demographic is not only small, but intelligent, informed, and somewhat zealous.
Anyone who has suggested that Moog deserves the money they charge for this service because of the costs associated with server space, design, etc. is portraying Moog as being victimized by those things that other companies do for free as a marketing tool. Again, if Moog thinks they can make money that way, that's cool... but again, look at the dissatisfaction amongst loyal Moog customers as portrayed here. When other companies provide services such as forums, etc. for free, and Moog wants us to pay for theirs, they are, in effect, MAKING money that other companies usually invest in marketing.
I personally don't feel entitled at all. Moog owes me nothing... however, I do not serve Moog. Moog is a company that wants my money, therefore they should seek to serve me. Otherwise, they look like they are charging ME for being interested in their product... which is likely to generate cynicism.
They won't exist if they don't make money, but they also won't exist by creating discontent in their tiny demographic... 50% of which seems discontented. I want them to make money, I really do. But, as I indicated, their premium prices on their products should be doing that... and if it isn't, and they need to rely on making up the difference in t-shirt sales and mp3 hosting, that says something about their marketing.
All of that being said, I hope that Moogspace is beneficial for those who are interested, and if Moog makes money from it and it doesn't damage their customer interest, then good. However, "forcing" us to subscribe by removing the free forum (which lacks all of the goodies) is not a good way to achieve customer support.
I am in no way dismissing... I am stating valid marketing concerns and indicating that I will not be pleased if my beloved forum is removed to motivate me to give Moog more of my money.
As for my cynicism, I am very cynical... but not out of some desire to undermine Moog, or some anti-Moog bitterness... but rather their own actions as demonstrated by a $20 pricetag on an EXTREMELY simple basic tshirt silkscreen design.
Again, I'm totally in support of free enterprise... you can charge anything you like for your products... but a company has to realize that it is easy to generate contempt in a small demographic (like the analog synthesizer buying demographic) by appearing to be "in it for the money." Especially since our demographic is not only small, but intelligent, informed, and somewhat zealous.
Anyone who has suggested that Moog deserves the money they charge for this service because of the costs associated with server space, design, etc. is portraying Moog as being victimized by those things that other companies do for free as a marketing tool. Again, if Moog thinks they can make money that way, that's cool... but again, look at the dissatisfaction amongst loyal Moog customers as portrayed here. When other companies provide services such as forums, etc. for free, and Moog wants us to pay for theirs, they are, in effect, MAKING money that other companies usually invest in marketing.
I personally don't feel entitled at all. Moog owes me nothing... however, I do not serve Moog. Moog is a company that wants my money, therefore they should seek to serve me. Otherwise, they look like they are charging ME for being interested in their product... which is likely to generate cynicism.
They won't exist if they don't make money, but they also won't exist by creating discontent in their tiny demographic... 50% of which seems discontented. I want them to make money, I really do. But, as I indicated, their premium prices on their products should be doing that... and if it isn't, and they need to rely on making up the difference in t-shirt sales and mp3 hosting, that says something about their marketing.
All of that being said, I hope that Moogspace is beneficial for those who are interested, and if Moog makes money from it and it doesn't damage their customer interest, then good. However, "forcing" us to subscribe by removing the free forum (which lacks all of the goodies) is not a good way to achieve customer support.
I am in no way dismissing... I am stating valid marketing concerns and indicating that I will not be pleased if my beloved forum is removed to motivate me to give Moog more of my money.
www.youtube.com/user/automaticgainsay
www.myspace.com/automaticgainsay2
www.myspace.com/godfreyscordialmusic
www.myspace.com/automaticgainsay2
www.myspace.com/godfreyscordialmusic
Muse,
You can always go to Yahoo and start your own forum. Personally, I'm going to give the new Moog Space a chance. I will not miss the Amazing Video, Britney sex and drug spams. Nor will I miss the "Hey, how can I get my Korg (or whatever) to work with Cubase?" questions. The $1.09/month fee will act as a very effective filter for such nonsense. The new Moog Space could really become a great resource for serious Moog lovers, and it could help solidify a Moog community. If Moog Space was simply a forum, then I would empathize with your feelings. However, from my understanding, Moog Space in time is going to expand and offer much more. Even now, it has a lot more going for it than Moog Music Forum. I say give it a chance. Moog always seems to come through.
You can always go to Yahoo and start your own forum. Personally, I'm going to give the new Moog Space a chance. I will not miss the Amazing Video, Britney sex and drug spams. Nor will I miss the "Hey, how can I get my Korg (or whatever) to work with Cubase?" questions. The $1.09/month fee will act as a very effective filter for such nonsense. The new Moog Space could really become a great resource for serious Moog lovers, and it could help solidify a Moog community. If Moog Space was simply a forum, then I would empathize with your feelings. However, from my understanding, Moog Space in time is going to expand and offer much more. Even now, it has a lot more going for it than Moog Music Forum. I say give it a chance. Moog always seems to come through.
Mark Mahoney
http://www.reverbnation.com/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck
www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmahoney
http://www.reverbnation.com/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck
www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmahoney
Telling people to start their own forum isn't the answer...People like Museslave are the kind of folks you want to bring inside. And when you start to turn off guys like Kevin Lightner who can recall resistor values for a 1972 Musonic Minimoog in his sleep,,,it's surely a sign that this venture is not going to be the kind of community originally envisioned, unfortunately I see it becoming a small moog clique. If thats what you want than by all means go for it. I don't think it's somesthing Bob would have been happy with, not over $13 bucks. I think moog should bite the bullet on this...but in fairness to all who already paid and to keep out the spammers.. moog should offer a free subscription to anyone who makes a minimum donation of $13 to the Moog Foundation. This could be done thru moog ..I think that would be more appealing and who would want to say no to Bob.
"Although they heard the music..they didn't understand the tune"
my name is josh and i'm poor. while i think the voyager and LP are great, I cant affrod those currently. I have bought a broken source, broken rogue and 2 mg-1. Sometimes I need help with them, and other people seem to also come here for that. At the current time I have no use at all for room we will receive from moogspace. I really don't see the harm in offering the message boards free and all the extra room and special whatevers for a price.
I havent seen it myself because I am lazy, but is it really true that 13$ a year is the starting rate? That sounds like some cable plan where you pay $19.95* a month and then after 6 months pay $49.99. That scares me even more
I havent seen it myself because I am lazy, but is it really true that 13$ a year is the starting rate? That sounds like some cable plan where you pay $19.95* a month and then after 6 months pay $49.99. That scares me even more
I did not mean to give Muse a hard time, although it could be read that way (and I do apologize if that is how it came off), but I just meant that free forums can be had for those who want to put the time and effort into it. GregAE made the effort, but few contributed. It appears that he is already making contributions to Moog Space.Telling people to start their own forum isn't the answer...People like Museslave are the kind of folks you want to bring inside.
Mark Mahoney
http://www.reverbnation.com/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck
www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmahoney
http://www.reverbnation.com/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck
www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmahoney
Heh, I suppose I could... but somehow I don't think I would be able to draw everyone to my forum. : ) Perhaps that should be an aspiration of mine. : )MarkM wrote:Muse,
You can always go to Yahoo and start your own forum.
I hadn't thought of if that way... that's pretty good. : )MarkM wrote:Personally, I'm going to give the new Moog Space a chance. I will not miss the Amazing Video, Britney sex and drug spams. Nor will I miss the "Hey, how can I get my Korg (or whatever) to work with Cubase?" questions. The $1.09/month fee will act as a very effective filter for such nonsense.
Well, if this forum closes and I can't have my need to obsessively rant about my analog addiction met by someplace else online, perhaps I'll join too.MarkM wrote:The new Moog Space could really become a great resource for serious Moog lovers, and it could help solidify a Moog community. If Moog Space was simply a forum, then I would empathize with your feelings. However, from my understanding, Moog Space in time is going to expand and offer much more. Even now, it has a lot more going for it than Moog Music Forum. I say give it a chance. Moog always seems to come through.
Honestly, though... it seemed to me like we had a community with this forum.
www.youtube.com/user/automaticgainsay
www.myspace.com/automaticgainsay2
www.myspace.com/godfreyscordialmusic
www.myspace.com/automaticgainsay2
www.myspace.com/godfreyscordialmusic
Oh, my god, that'd be a GREAT idea! A demonstration of Moog's commitment to the ideals of its namesake, and proof that it ISN'T all about the money.ARP wrote:moog should offer a free subscription to anyone who makes a minimum donation of $13 to the Moog Foundation. This could be done thru moog ..I think that would be more appealing and who would want to say no to Bob.
I would have a hard time complaining about the $13 in that instance.
www.youtube.com/user/automaticgainsay
www.myspace.com/automaticgainsay2
www.myspace.com/godfreyscordialmusic
www.myspace.com/automaticgainsay2
www.myspace.com/godfreyscordialmusic