virtual moggs

[teknobeam]

Hello, I'm new to the forum. I own a number of synthesizers (unfortunatley none of them a moog).

I'm not a live performer anymore, do all of my compostion in my studio so I was looking into virtual synths specifically something that would emulate the sound of the mini moog. None of my other synths including my MKS80 or JX8P can copy that classic sound. I used to have an SH 5 that did a lot of interesting stuff, but stupidly I sold it to buy a DX 7 many years ago when i played in touring bands and needed the sounds of the day as opposed to unique sound synthesis.

I was looking into the Voyager, and now the Little Phatty when I stumbled across the mini max by Creamware on E Bay. I checked some reviews including 'keyboard" and theya ll seemed very positive.

I guess my purpose for asking about this virtual synth in this ofrum is becasue if anyone could offer a worthy opinion, it would be some of you.

Sorry for the long post

Teknobeam

[goldphinga]

alright man! welcome to the forum!

well, sorry to say this but you wont make many friends on a moog hardware forum like this asking about software emulations, but what i will say is if you have to go software ive heard good things about the creamware gear and also arturia stuff which i think moog endorsed at some point.

thing is, none of them sound like the real thing. you think they do until you get them side by side with the real things. I dont mean to sound condescending but its the truth. For an example i tested the korg ms20 legacy emulation next to my original ms20 and although it has something about it that sounds sort of similar to the original it just doesnt sound quite right.

If i were you id spend the money (whats your budget?)on one of the following,

1.voyager
2.phatty
3.source
4.original minimoog
5.prodigy

or go software but dont expect it to sound that faithful to an original minimoog.

hope that helps.

[Ted3000]

I understand and sympathize with the software people. I use software and various plugin "synths" - and they do a very good job for what they are. The fact that you can get a decent filter emulation from a pile of bits in a minor miracle.

The creamware and arturia softsynths are very convenient and have a pretty high-quality sound. But they lack the tactile interface, and are fairly uninspiring. I find myself glumly flipping through presets until the boredom ratio makes me go outside and play.

I agree with goldphinga. Set up a Minimoog next to your midi-controller and software, and play.

Besides the latency of plugins (which has improved vastly over the years but still is not quite there, unless you have a $3,000 computer) there are subtle but important sonic qualities to an analog synth. And Moog synths have the best sounding, most musical filters out there.

Sitting in a mix, the average person can't hear the difference. So it might not make a differnece to you. But musical instruments aren't for the consumption of dilletants, or for burying in a wash of other sounds. They should stand up on their own. A Moog synth can, just like a guitar, be a musically complex, attention-holding solo instrument.

Slowly tweak the filter cutoff on your favorite synth plugin. Sounds OK, if it's a new, expensive hi-res conroller/plugin combo. (If it's old, like mine, it shows its digital seams.)

Do the same thing with a Moog from 1972. It sounds so much smoother and harmonically rich. There is a network of behavior that cannot be completely modeled. It's sonic infinity.

Having said that, the best virtual Moog in my opinion is the Alesis Ion/Micron. Sure, it's hardware, but much attention went into the Moog filter emulation. Not perfect, but nothing ever will be.

Except the Moog. The Moog sound is the Moog sound. Dig?

And doing thigns like maving a poly mode on a minimoog is a convenient violation of the spirit of the thing. Those companies should have poured the system resoruces into making the mono modes a much higher quality.

[chris allert]

alright man! welcome to the forum!

If i were you id spend the money (whats your budget?)on one of the following,

1.voyager
2.phatty
3.source
4.original minimoog
5.prodigy

i'd also add the studio electronics se1x to the above list since this is basically a minimoog in a rack-mount enclosure and has a design goal of sounding like a minimoog. it will certainly sound more like a minimoog than the phatty since it has three oscillators. i'm not sure it's enough cheaper than the voyager rack to be worth what you lose (cv inputs), but it may be for some people.

i agree with others that you won't get a satisfactory software emulation of a minimoog. you may get good enough results using software in conjunction with a moogerfooger mf101 since the filter is a big part of the characteristic sound.

[teknobeam]

i'd also add the studio electronics se1x to the above list since this is basically a minimoog in a rack-mount enclosure and has a design goal of sounding like a minimoog. it will certainly sound more like a minimoog than the phatty since it has three oscillators. i'm not sure it's enough cheaper than the voyager rack to be worth what you lose (cv inputs), but it may be for some people.

I had the same thoughts re: the Little fatty only having two VCO's. the minimoog has three.

Thanks everyone for the replies. My inspiration for seeking out the moog after all the years of owning a collection of other electronic instruments was seeing a "heart" performance the other night on TV. I was flipping through channels and just stumbled on it. The keyboard player was using a voyager, and I was stunned to hear her reproduce the solo for an old tune called " Magic man" she executed it flawlessly including all of the portamento, LFO effects and most importantly, the sound. The sound read through the mix incredibly and was unmistakably rich, fat Moog.

I will probably end up biting the bullet and purchsing a Voyager, but I'm going to wait to see how the Little Phatty is recieved overall before i jump in

Thaks again

Teknobeam

[goldphinga]

dont forget that as the mini had no dedicated lfo, osc 3 was used for modulation duties and hence many of the classic mini sounds used just 2 oscs, not 3.

[GregAE]

The creamware and arturia softsynths are very convenient and have a pretty high-quality sound. But they lack the tactile interface, and are fairly uninspiring. I find myself glumly flipping through presets until the boredom ratio makes me go outside and play.

The CreamWare Minimax is a stand-alone synth module. It's interface is layed out like a Minimoog with all of the same controls located in the same place, but just scaled down. I can attest that it sounds very close to a Minimoog (I checked it against a friend's Mini). It would definately be worth considering for your studio. The only downside is trying to find one to check out - none of my local music stores stock it. Maybe you'll have better luck.

Arturia's Moog Modular V software is another product worth having IMO. For me, this softsynth is the closest I'll ever get to a real modular (it's actually the only softsynth I own and use). I control it with a Behringer BCR-2000 rotary controller (lots of knobs for real-time adjustment!). I find it very inspiring, and the presets provide a good indication of what it can do. Plus, it can get Moog sounds that no other Moog synth (except a modular) can create.

Both the CreamWare and Arturia products are polyphonic, which isn't really in keeping with the spirit of the monophonic Minimoog, but polyphony offers interesting and exciting possibilities that would otherwise only be able through multi-tracking the Mini.

Having said that, the best virtual Moog in my opinion is the Alesis Ion/Micron. Sure, it's hardware, but much attention went into the Moog filter emulation. Not perfect, but nothing ever will be.

The Ion is a great virtual Moog hardware clone (I own one). I understand that the Alesis folks went to great lengths to model the Moog filter (and the ARP, Oberheim, and other filters). The Ion has good interface and it's easy to get around. Note, however, that there were problems reported with some of the Ions (defective rotary encoders), so if you consider getting one, make sure you can exchange it if you need to. That said, the Ion is another worthy contender, IMO

Of course, the ultimate recommendation here is the Voyager - the real-deal, no excuses, authetic analog board. If you must have an honest to goodness Moog synth, this is the one to buy. And if fundage is an issue (isn't it always?), consider the Little Phatty. You won't be disappointed with either one.

- G

[analogbass]

None of my other synths including my MKS80 or JX8P can copy that classic sound..[/quote]


The Rolands sound very different, there's no way to get a Moog sound from them. You have to consider them very different flavors and accept that all of these older synths have distinct personas; exactly why it's worth having several of them, or more-I have my MKS alonside the Mini and Source for the contrast in sounds they provide together.

No idea how close the software versions are; in any case i'd always go with the real thing; rack Voyagers don't cost that much now.

[nicholas d. kent]

Just some comments -

I always wince when people drop the names of polysynths and monosynths and to a lesser extent synths with memories and those without them. Depending on how you go about performing music these are real make or break features.

I still have an MKS-80, which I bought first. I'll definitely agree if you think it leaves you wanting Moog sounds. I mean to me it wasn't a case of "can I settle for a prodigy", it was a case of "can I save enough for a memorymoog" (polyphony, real knobs, memories, all of which I really needed, not just one or none of them)

The Minimax thing is standalone polyphonic digital hardware so it's a mistake to say it lacks a tactile interface or debates over latency past what's part of MIDI. I haven't really formed an opinion on it but it doesn't seem very imaginative or original.

It really depends how demanding you are to find just the right sound you are after. Something that some people forget is two vintage synths of the same model won't even sound the same so who's to say if a fairly good emulation is emulating one or the other. For instance a lot of people are trying to figure out the deal with MS-20s sounding different, people have known for years Odyssey's have a couple very different filters, newer or older Minimoog vcos can be debated, many completely different sound-making chips in MKS-80. It might make an interesting research paper to find all the cases of companies in their rush to "emulate" something or other winding up accidently emulating unserviced instruments - you know, where age has by itself made them sound different than they should

To me, I want to hear a synth. I might be totally enchanted, I might think, hey I can do something with this and some work or maybe I think, "uhh... I'm not looking forward to doing much with this if I owned it".

It may not be a perfect solution, but don't forget you can get a moogerfooger pedal for something monophonic you have