New VCO/VCA MoogerFooger?

[eric coleridge]

From time to time, I've seen people post with ideas for new MFs. I have a couple ideas myself that I thought I'd share. I was also wondering if anyone else had specific ideas for another MF?

It seems like most of the MF incorporate at least a couple functions and so what I was thinking about (and hoping to see) was a Pitch to Voltage VCO/ VCA Moogerfooger.

When you play a sound into it, it would trigger a VCO to sound (through the VCA) in the same pitch as the incoming signal. So, it would be kind of like guitar synth/ or octave pedal. You could mix between the oscilator sound and the input signal. The first row of knobs would be the mix knob on top and an oscillator wave selector knob on bottom. In between would be a switch for Oscillator octave range.

The other side would be the VCA with two knobs for attack and decay and a sustain switch in the middle. This would allow you to control the overall dynamics of the processed output sound. If you turned the mix knob all the way down (so that no oscillator sound came through), it would function as a dynamics pedal for you guitar or other instrument. You could add a slow attack to your guitar sound for instance.

On the back would be a signal input, osc. CV input, osc. out (removing it from the signal path of the pedal), VCA CV input, env. out, and audio output. You could patch the Oscillator into your MF 102 or 101, and then back into audio input on the VCO/VCA.

Something like this would sort of complete the Mooger line as a total synth by adding VCO and VCA as well as be a cool effect on it's own.

[godzilla]

amazing idea

i once tried to think how hey could make a pedal with VCO/VCA but i couldn't quite work it out

a few additions though

CV out (of the input) gate in/out (the gate that triggers the VCA)

they'd probably have to add a few more knobs to control the sensitivity of the pitch tracking and some more VCO controls

they could use those knobs that have an inner and outer pot to save space

[asd]

i think this is a great idea for a product. i'd get a lot of mileage out of it with my guitar setup and would love to see it made.

what i've read seems to say that the tracking is such a difficult thing that it's basically prohibitory for any product like this. also, the issue of what to do with sounds that aren't simple monophonic (sp?) signals. i'm no electronics person though, but i imagine other people on the board can give a technical explanation about the challenges.

even with the inherent difficulties and inevitable limitations of a product like this i'd still really like to see something made. the imperfections would probably lead to a lot of really interesting and idiosyncratic behavior that some people would like and probably come to rely on.

[Sweep]

i think this is a great idea for a product. i'd get a lot of mileage out of it with my guitar setup and would love to see it made.

what i've read seems to say that the tracking is such a difficult thing that it's basically prohibitory for any product like this.

As far as guitar tracking is concerned, I have an idea that should solve all the guitar synth tracking problems at a stroke if it works as I believe it would. This thread reminds me, I should approach someone with it. I nearly did that with Roland a couple of years ago, but something else happened and I got sidetracked. Maybe I should contact Moog with this. It's about time it was put to the test.

[eric coleridge]

what i've read seems to say that the tracking is such a difficult thing that it's basically prohibitory for any product like this. also, the issue of what to do with sounds that aren't simple monophonic (sp?) signals. i'm no electronics person though, but i imagine other people on the board can give a technical explanation about the challenges.

Yeah, I think you're probably right about this. Pitch to Voltage Contolled Oscillators seem like such a great idea that would cater to so many different application, it makes you wonder why there haven't been more products implementing this technology. I know of only a few. I have a Korg MS20 which has "External Sound Processing" incorporating P/V but it doesn't really work for more than 1 octave at a time, and even then it's pretty spotty with alot of misfiring. It also takes alot of adjusting of several knobs to get that 1 to 2 octaves to sort of work.

Besides this I know of a Roland rack mount P/V synth, one from Gentle Electronics (?), 360

i think this is a great idea for a product. i'd get a lot of mileage out of it with my guitar setup and would love to see it made.

what i've read seems to say that the tracking is such a difficult thing that it's basically prohibitory for any product like this.

As far as guitar tracking is concerned, I have an idea that should solve all the guitar synth tracking problems at a stroke if it works as I believe it would. This thread reminds me, I should approach someone with it. I nearly did that with Roland a couple of years ago, but something else happened and I got sidetracked. Maybe I should contact Moog with this. It's about time it was put to the test.

[eric coleridge]

what i've read seems to say that the tracking is such a difficult thing that it's basically prohibitory for any product like this. also, the issue of what to do with sounds that aren't simple monophonic (sp?) signals. i'm no electronics person though, but i imagine other people on the board can give a technical explanation about the challenges.

Yeah, I think you're probably right about this. Pitch to Voltage Contolled Oscillators seem like such a great idea that would cater to so many different application, it makes you wonder why there haven't been more products implementing this technology. I know of only a few. I have a Korg MS20 which has "External Sound Processing" incorporating P/V (the same circuit as their little Guitar Synth from the time) but it doesn't really work for more than 1 octave at a time, and even then it's pretty spotty with alot of misfiring. It also takes alot of adjusting of several knobs to get that 1 to 2 octaves to sort of work.

Besides this I know of a Roland SPV rack mount P/V synth, one from Gentle
Electronics (?), 360 Systems, the Arp Avatar, maybe a few others. I haven't tried any of them but from what I've read, none of them really work in a practical way.

Then there are all the Roland guitar synths from the 80s which are supposed to work well, but they're a little different because they use DCOs which are probably easier to control.

But you'd think that mabey technology has advanced enough by now that a P/V synth could work better.

As far as guitar tracking is concerned, I have an idea that should solve all the guitar synth tracking problems at a stroke if it works as I believe it would. This thread reminds me, I should approach someone with it. I nearly did that with Roland a couple of years ago, but something else happened and I got sidetracked. Maybe I should contact Moog with this. It's about time it was put to the test.

You should make it yourself and sell it on e-bay maybe. I think it would be a huge product. I've always wanted one that worked.

[dr_floyd]

I've attempted to try every pitch-to-voltage converter I could find over the years to use with woodwinds. Here is what I learned:

1. Roland SPV355 Pitch to Voltage Synthesizer - includes a tunable two osc (plus sub osc), vcf, vca, portamento and lots of foot controller options, plus pitch cv out, env follower out, gate out, and pitch cv in gate in. I think this evolved from a module on the Roland 100 modular synthesizer. The oscillators and filter sound great - thicker than the later Jupiter stuff. Tracking can be iffy, but with care this thing is great and always musical.

2. Gentle Electric Model 101 Pitch and Envelope Follower - very nice and complete processor, also used in the Serge modulars (I'm pretty sure). Various pitch cv outputs, env follower outs (linear/exponential), gate/trigger outputs, preamp out, insanely compressed preamp out. Has to be set up carefully, but works well.

3. EMS Pitch-to-Voltage Converter - made by British Synthi/AKS company, used by Eno, seems very similar to Gentle Electric, but with a few more features. I've never actually seen a real one. http://www.oldtech.com/synth/Ems-PtoV-big.jpg

4. Fairlight Voicetracker - both pitch/env/timbre to cv, and pitch/env/timbre to midi, with a single digital oscillator with modulation basic synthesizer on-board, which doesn't sound so good. Fully featured, lots of setup possibilities, real-time video output of pitch, timbre, env, etc. Only converter I've seen that contains a timbre to cv/timbre to midi output. Has one drawback regarding re-triggering/legato playing in that it doesn't always follow the pitch change with legato playing.

5. Arp Avatar - great sounding synthesizer, I am now rigging an input cable to test the pitch to voltage conversion with woodwinds rather than guitar, so don't know yet. Avatar is literally an Odyssey without a keyboard, but with p to v converters and fuzz. Avatar sounds even better with a Moog ladder filter replacing the stock Arp filter.

6. Korg MS-20 - always fun, tracked woodwinds accurately for 3 octaves in my experience, but the linear voltage output instead of 1V/oct limited its appeal, and I never liked the thin sound too much.

There are also several pitch to midi converters that you could then use a midi to cv converter: Roland VP70, Roland GM70, Roland GI10, Roland CP40, Axon AX100, Yamaha G50, Pitchrider series...
I would love for Moog to make the definitive version, but can't see how they'd fit that much analog circuitry into a Mooger footprint. Also, pitch-to-voltage conversion is something Moog never has done before, and they seem to be sticking to what they know, which is not inconsiderable.

[eric coleridge]

Also, pitch-to-voltage conversion is something Moog never has done before, and they seem to be sticking to what they know, which is not inconsiderable.

Are you sure that there wasn't a P/V module for the Moog Modular? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me, as it seems like a lot of older modulars had a module for this function.

I think the circuit on the MS20 is small enough to fit in a Fooger.

You know, I've heard other people say the MS20 worked well too. Maybe it's just mine. Or maybe it works better as a wind controller than a guitar synth (all I've tried it with). I've always had alot of mis-firings in the decay stage of the sound, and you really have to play super steady witch makes it not too versatile.

[dr_floyd]

I've never seen or heard about a pitch-to-voltage module from Moog, not from the modular era and most definitely not later. Easy to look up, so I'll do that next. I think Bob was already gone from Moog when p-to-v started getting popular in the 80's.
I agree JUST pitch-to-voltage circuitry would probably fit in a Mooger, but I thought we were talking about including an oscillator and VCA in the same package. And it makes sense to have some sort of modulation and portomento.
Maybe this would be possible with a combination of the new Moog analog encoder knob and the new analog dsp chip recently released.

[dr_floyd]

From an interview with Bob Moog:
PSF: Have there been some unusual synthesizer models that you've created or helped create?

Moog: We've done a lot of experimental stuff that never went into production. I think my favorite was a four-oscillator synthesizer that was controlled from a pitch follower circuit, that we built for the electric sax player Eddie Harris. Eddie used it for years and made several records with it.

Maybe this thing could be resurrected.

Re: MS20 - I don't think I ever enjoyed using it with guitar or bass. Seemed like the string signal was too complex and the timbre change depending on the range really messed up the MS pitch follower. The Roland SPV, on the other hand is great fun with guitar and bass (although it does not track the bass in the lowest octave or so - just stays silent). The tracking can be crazy if you accidentally play more than one note or get some harmonics, but it's good crazy in my opinion.

[dr_floyd]

The 912 Envelope Follower was a common in the modulars.
The 1634 Pitch-to-Voltage module did apparently exist, but I cannot find any information beyond the module number.
So yes, Moog has all the engineering to make this new Mooger work!

[eric coleridge]

Now that you mention it, the P/V thing probably does pre-date the Moog Modules. But I wouldn't say that Moog particularly limits it's products to technology it's used in the past.

I couldn't speculate on circuit sizes, but they do manage to get alot of circuits in the Moogers; I think because of all the chip technology they use as oppossed to more discrete electronics on older Moogs. Just think of the Ring Mod; it has (at least), a pre-amp, an LFO, a Ring Mod, a VCO, and some form of VCA for gating the ring mod signal to the input. And the Murf probably has even more in it with all those filters, etc. I don't know if they use chips for their filters in the Moogers, but I know it's possible to get a VCO, VCF or a VCA all on one little chip.

However, if the Avatar is any indication, the P/V circuit can take up alot of room. I also used to own one (that I never had the pick-up for- so I couldn't test out it's P/V function) and the circuit board for the P/V was bigger than those for the entire rest of the synth. I wish I was able to try it out, because the synth itself is in many ways the best synth I've ever played. I actually prefer the filter on the Avatar (with it's limitations) to the Arp ladder filter. I'm probably the only person who does though.

Anyway, the P/V VCO thing was just a thought. I'd like to see something like it.

[eric coleridge]

From an interview with Bob Moog:
Moog: We've done a lot of experimental stuff that never went into production. I think my favorite was a four-oscillator synthesizer that was controlled from a pitch follower circuit, that we built for the electric sax player Eddie Harris. Eddie used it for years and made several records with it.

Wow, now that's what I'm talking about. That would be such a great product. But again, maybe these Pitch Follwers/P/V circuits are better with brass/woodwind sounds then with guitars. It would make sense, as their sound is more constant and steady, with real sharp attack and decay.