Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Tips and techniques for Minimoog Analog Synthesizers
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till
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by till » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:57 pm

ummagumma wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:41 pm...
is it possible to export a firmware file, via sysex?
Yes. See the SysEx manual:

Code: Select all

ADDITIONAL SYSEX COMMANDS
TRANSMIT FIRMWARE
F0 04 15 7F 16 00 00 00 F7
(Hardware will output keyscan firmware image in SysEx format; can be saved & used to program another keyscan board if needed)
I never tried it. And I just got 1.8.0 on my two Minimoog reissues here.
keep on turning these Moog knobs

Sequence:
Prodigy * minimoog '79 * Voyager * MF102 * MF103 * MF104z * MP201 * Taurus 3 * Minitaur * Sub Phatty * MF105 * Minimoog 2017+ MUSE * One 16

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ummagumma
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by ummagumma » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:11 pm

I suppose some kind soul could export & make available the earlier firmware, so these poor guys can try it?

However, I have to imagine Moog has already done that, in their troubleshooting...

And I certainly would not want to be responsible for anyone bricking their model D

Markyboard
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by Markyboard » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:40 am

Signman wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:31 am I had another reply from Moog.

They basically told me I should be grateful I have no hard wear issues !

They are aware of the Keyboard Error issue but being a small company and currently busy on new projects have no time to deal with the Keyboard Error problem on the Re Issue Model D.



Taylor (Moog Music)

Sep 23, 08:08 -05

Hi Paul,

I understand your concerns, but we are a small company and do not have engineering resources to devote to the Model D firmware at this time. We will in all likelihood release a firmware update to the Model D, but our firmware teams have their hands full with instruments currently in production.

The Model D Reissue functions very well as just that: a reissue of the classic Minimoog Model D, and I am not aware of any returns for this issue. I hear your frustration, but hope you can at least take some solace in the fact that you are not experiencing a hardware failure in your instrument.

Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.
WOW! Can not believe this response. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their current products. I don't know how a real engineer who takes pride and ownership of his work can live with this BS. This probably explains why a number of reported midi problems haven't been addressed on multiple products, and may never be. I understand business priorities but for a $3K product only recently discontinued....Sheesh! And its not like this came from some low level employee; this is from one of the Moog OWNERS!!!! Come on man, if your'e going to call yourself one take some responsibility and stand up to the “real” owner/manager.

In the mean time I hope you can take solace in the fact that my money is still going towards synthesizers....just not yours. :roll:

Signman
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by Signman » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:35 pm

In the mean time I hope you can take solace in the fact that my money is still going towards synthesizers....just not yours.


Be the last product I buy of theirs too if don't get a response and a fix.
I have run my own small business for 30 plus year's and you don't treat customer's like that and expect them to return.

The product should not have even passed final inspection.
Very poor service in my book.

Signman
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by Signman » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:40 pm

Only time will tell if this ever get's resolved.

See below :-

Taylor (Moog Music)

Sep 25, 13:24 -05

Thank you, Paul. I am not trying to leave our customers high and dry without a feature that we promised, but I am not the one who wrote the code for the Model D and cannot fix it as much as I would like to. Our firmware engineers are aware of this and I have applied pressure on them and shared this link. At this point, I am waiting with you.

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ummagumma
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by ummagumma » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:17 pm

well, it could be worse: you could have a vintage model D & be dealing with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW0HSsaV3UU

I wasn't even aware of the keyboard tuning option until I saw mootbooxle's youtube vid. I used mine blissfully unaware for almost a year!

Signman
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by Signman » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:19 am

I have a Monopoly and a Poly 61 so familiar with keyboard issues :x
My Poly 61 is stripped at the moment while I service to contact's.

The original Pratt -Reed are a quality piece of engineering when serviced correctly.

Yea saw the Mootbooxie video.
Fabulous musician.

I have a few old synth's that drift all over the show..Jupiter 4 for example.
Was close to buying an original Minimoog but a few owner's advised me to buy the Re Issue :shock:

They had done the same and moved their vintage on.
Personally feel 'Keyboard Error' should have been the default setting.

Moog One was on my radar in the future but have my concern's about this company now.

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ummagumma
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by ummagumma » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:33 pm

yeah that is a drag, I hope they sort it out for you ( and everyone else! )

meanwhile, if the firmware rollback works, I guess we have 2 options:

1. modwheel pitch works correctly via MIDI as a controller, but vintage keyboard tuning error does not work
2. vintage keyboard tuning error works, but modwheel pitch is off via MIDI as a controller

choose your poison?

*edit* I wonder if the fix for the MDI modwheel pitch affected the programming for the vintage keyboard tuning emulation?

Signman
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by Signman » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:50 pm

*edit* I wonder if the fix for the MDI modwheel pitch affected the programming for the vintage keyboard tuning emulation?

Reckon so.

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Analog Prophet
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by Analog Prophet » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:55 am

ummagumma wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:17 pm well, it could be worse: you could have a vintage model D & be dealing with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW0HSsaV3UU

I wasn't even aware of the keyboard tuning option until I saw mootbooxle's youtube vid. I used mine blissfully unaware for almost a year!
There is no way to give an answer the question of the issue to the guy. I have a friend who bought a vintage Model D with exactly the same issue (got it very cheap because of that). One day he opened it up, cleaned the connectors (a metallic ?) below the keys and then it worked perfectly.
_____________________________________________
http://www.soundofmusic.se

Signman
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by Signman » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:57 pm

Anyone had any success loading older firmware and managed to get Keyboard Error working ?

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dingebre
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by dingebre » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:16 am

I thought I'd add the results of an experiment.

Minimoog Model D re-issue, serial number #0170
Firmware version 1.8
I checked this with till's SysEx file (thank you till). The request returned:
F0 7E 7F 06 02 04 00 15 00 01 00 00 08 01 F7

So, version 1.8

First, I went through and tried some of the "Power-On Commands", and best I can tell on a basic trial, they seem to work. The note priority commands work as described and expected, Legato triggering works, I did not explore the MIDI Power-On Commands. The tuning tables appear to load. I did not try different velocity curves.

Now for the Tuning Error.

I made sure it was disabled with a global reset and using F1-B1 and measured:
C1- 1.0000 with an occasional bounce to 0.9999 VDC
C2 - 1.9999 with an occasional bounce to 2.0000 VDC
C3 - 2.9995 VDC
C4 - 3.9993 VDC

Seems correct.

I enabled the Tuning Error and read the following voltages on the CV out jack:
C1 - 1.0023 VDC
C2 - 2.0009 VDC
C3 - 3.0029 VDC
C4 - 4.0008 VDC

I powered off and enabled it again without disabling it first for fun:
C1 - 1.0016 VDC
C2 - 2.0005 VDC
C3 - 3.0026 VDC
C4 - 4.0008 VDC

I disabled it with a power on holding F1 - B1 and then I re-enabled the Tuning Error and read:
C1 - 1.0014 VDC
1.4 mV difference - 1.7 cents

C2 - 2.0004 VDC
0.5 mV difference - 0.6 cents

C3 - 3.0025 VDC
3.0 mV difference - 3.6 cents

C4 - 4.0007 VDC
1.4 mV difference - 1.7 cents

Granted, one could argue I should compare against the "ideal" CV. I chose to measure against what I measured with the Tuning Error disabled. If I've done the math right, understanding there are 1200 cents per octave and therefore 1/1200 or 0.00083 volts/cent. The manual says there will be as much as 10 cents difference which is a tolerance of +/- 0.0083 VDC or 8.3 mV. I'm not measuring that much variation, but as much as 3.0 mV, or about 3.6 cents max at least for the C keys.

There is definitely a difference in the CV output voltage between enabled and disabled. I seem to get pretty much the same variation each time I toggle the Tuning Error on and off though. Doesn't seem too random between toggles. I suspect it's a fixed table or something. Bottom line though is it does change the CV out.

For more fun, here it is with the G key:

Disabled:
G0 - 0.5830 VDC
G1 - 1.5831 VDC
G2 - 2.5829 VDC
G3 - 3.5827 VDC


Enabled:
G0 - 0.5848 VDC
1.8 mV difference - 2.2 cents

G1 - 1.5834 VDC
0.3 mV difference - 0.4 cents

G2 - 2.5839 VDC
1.0 mV difference - 1.2 cents

G3 - 3.5848 VDC
2.1 mV difference - 2.5 cents

In this limited experiment, the error always seemed to be a positive shift. Never negative.
David

http://analoguerealities.com
http://analoguerealities.blogspot.com

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ummagumma
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Re: Model D reissue, Keyboard tuning error NOT working?

Post by ummagumma » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:49 pm

hmm that is interesting, thx for posting!!

it appears to randomly generate the values each time you enable it

they may have just measured one old model D and approximated the same values

do we know if the resistor drift/mismatch resulted in both upwards & downwards pitch changes?

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