Sub 37 - latching / envelope release in duo mode?

[aswefallintostatic]

Hi there,

I have been using the Sub 37 for a few months now and am having a lot of fun with it. I am using it for a lot of live improvisation (if you are interested to check out my music you can do here: https://soundcloud.com/aswefallintostat ... l-sessions)

A feature which i use a lot is the latch function to drone notes whilst i tweak my drum machine etc... I am using the [LATCH ON] button on the ADSR to do this, however if in duo mode then this only latches one of the notes, determined by the [KB CTRL]. I have been searching through the manual and various forums and cant find any reference to how to get both oscilators to latch on different notes. This seems not a problem for most poly synths and I woudl be amazed if it is not a frature of the sub 37, i just cant seem to find the right sub menu...

Some of the time i can just make a sequence and that works fine, but if i want to improvise more with the harmony then i really want to be able to latch the two notes seperately. Any help would be much appreciated!

EDIT: i noticed that it is the same with the release aspect of the envelope. If i am playing both oscillators separately and let go at the same time then only one note will keep sounding, played by both oscilators. I am wondering if this is an aspect of the Duophonic synths sharing a filter thing? Any thoughts / advice much appreciated!

Cheers,
Tom

[lushr]

I only have really simple advice, please don't be offended.

1. Make sure the volume is up for both oscillators

2. Make sure you have the latest firmware

[Maikan]

why not just tune osc 2? or do you need the midi data to be a constant second note as well?

[aswefallintostatic]

double post, sorry! please read below...

[aswefallintostatic]

Hi there, thanks for the reply, no offence taken!

1) Yep, definately not the problem. I can play both oscilators seperately ok, however when i take my hands off the keys only one note continues to latch, played by both oscilators. If is is relevant i have got [MULT TRIG] and [RESET] active on the adsr.

2) i am on 1.0.6

Does anyone else get this problem?

[lushr]

Yeah from memory I get the same thing, but I'm never entirely sure, I haven't isolated it from other things going on. Sounds like you've been through the menu settings as well.

Hopefully Amos or other will respond? Maybe bring it up in firmware thread?

[aswefallintostatic]

why not just tune osc 2? or do you need the midi data to be a constant second note as well?

The problem is that i want to be able to change /improvise intervals rather than always using fixed intervals. Otherwise yeah, tuning osc 2 is fine!

/t

[_DemonDan_]

A feature which i use a lot is the latch function to drone notes whilst i tweak my drum machine etc... I am using the [LATCH ON] button on the ADSR to do this, however if in DUO MODE then this only latches one of the notes, determined by the [KB CTRL]. I have been searching through the manual and various forums and can't find any reference to how to get both oscilators to latch on different notes. This seems not a problem for most poly synths and I woudl be amazed if it is not a feature of the sub 37, i just cant seem to find the right sub menu...

i noticed that it is the same with the release aspect of the envelope. If i am playing both oscillators separately and let go at the same time then only one note will keep sounding, played by both oscilators. I am wondering if this is an aspect of the Duophonic synths sharing a filter thing.

Hi Tom,

The key thing to understand is that the Sub 37 is not polyphonic, it's paraphonic. There is only one filter and one final amp. But, the issue you're having has far less to do with either the filter or the amp. It's more about pitch.

When you hold two notes (and are in DUO MODE) each oscillator has its own pitch. When you release one of the keys, both of the oscillators track that single remaining key. You're not hearing one of the oscillators cut off via the volume or filter, you're just hearing the oscillator rapidly jump to the other note.

Here's a link to a post where I explain it in greater detail:

http://forum.moogmusic.com/viewtopic.ph ... pe+release

(Scroll about halfway down the first page to my posts.)

Lemme' know if you need me to say it in a different way.

[aswefallintostatic]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your reply, and for the link. It makes a lot more sense now why the two notes dont have their own release times. The only part i am still confused on is why when latching they do not both sound, as they both are clearly capable of sustaining independently even if separate release is not possible due to the pitch jumping to join whichever was release fractionally later. I had assumed that latch just meant the key release (and therefore the triggering of the 'release' stage of the ADSR) was ignored, however this was just an assumption, I don't actually know how it works!

Cheers,
Tom

[_DemonDan_]

The only part i am still confused on is why when latching they do not both sound, as they both are clearly capable of sustaining independently even if separate release is not possible due to the pitch jumping to join whichever was release fractionally later.

Hi Tom,

They are both sustaining.
It's just that they're both sustaining on the same key that was released a fraction of a second later than the other.

There is simply is no way to release both keys at an absolute exact instant in time.

[aswefallintostatic]

Hey Dan,

Thats cool, i get that aspect of it. I guess i dont full understand how 'latch' works as i had assumed it took place before the release so the order of release was unimportant due to it not actually happening.

I expected it to work in the following way [with latch on]

1st note press/latch: osc 1 + osc 2 play same note
2nd note press/latch, still holding original note: osc 1 original note, osc 2 note 2
3rd note press/latch, still holding 2nd note: osc 2 note 2, osc 1 note 3

etc...

(sorry, perhaps slightly confusingly put, let me know if i should reword!)

I get why both oscs jump to one note due to the shared envelope but i dont understand why the release is relevant with latch being used.

[_DemonDan_]

I guess i dont full understand how 'latch' works as i had assumed it took place before the release so the order of release was unimportant due to it not actually happening.

I get why both oscs jump to one note due to the shared envelope but i dont understand why the release is relevant with latch being used.

Hi Tom,

You are making mental connections between parts of an analog synthesizer that simply do not exist.

As stated in the link I gave you above, oscillators are *always on*. They don't switch on/off based on any envelopes (filter or amp), they're just always going.

Since all OSCILLATORS in the Sub 37 go from the MIXER to the FILTER to the final AMPLIFIER, it might initially seem like the FILTER EG and AMPLIFIER EG are turning the OSCILLATORS on/off. But you'll just have to trust me that OSC 1, OSC 2, SUB OSC, and NOISE are always going.

All that the FILTER LATCH does is fool the FILTER EG into thinking that the GATE is on (and nothing else).

All that the AMP LATCH does is fool the AMP EG into thinking that the GATE is on (and nothing else).

Neither of the LATCH buttons have anything to do with the OSCILLATORS or their pitch.

Neither of the LATCH buttons have anything to do with what keys have recently been pressed.
(LATCH is *NOT* a SUSTAIN PEDAL, it only affects the GATE for each ENVELOPE.)

(Whew, that's a lot of typing on an iPad mini...)

[mmarsh100]

(LATCH is *NOT* a SUSTAIN PEDAL, it only affects the GATE for each ENVELOPE.)

^
this!

[aswefallintostatic]

ok, thanks for the reply guys.

Looks like i cant get both osc's to latch together in Duo mode, shame

Is there a potential work around that might pop up in a future os update do you think?

[djstingray]

Plugging a sustain pedal into the KB gate works. I always rock a sustain pedal on poly's. I also have a Moog Expression pedal I use for all my instruments, I REALLLY recommend one of those to free up your hands.