MF-104M Feedback

[Rooftree]

I've finally joined the cult of Moog with a purchase of an MF-104M. Yay!! A Sub 37 is also in my future, but that will be many months from now.

The 104 will be used on synths and drum machines on an aux send from my mixer. Up until now I've been using a vintage EHX Deluxe Memory Man. The DMM sounds great but the 104 is so much more versatile.

And now for my question . . . Feedback on the 104 seems awfully tame in comparison to my experience with the DMM. Is there a way of getting the 104 feedback to go "over the top"? On the DMM feedback will self oscillate at a moderately high setting; if I crank feedback to maximum the self-oscillation will rapidly build into a screaming howl that gets louder and louder and louder until I'm forced to back way off lest I fry my monitors. I like this effect at times.

With feedback at maximum on the 104 I get self oscillation, but it's stable and chugs along unchanged no matter how much time passes. Is there any way of forcing the 104 to be less polite? I've only had it for a short time and haven't had time to properly set it up with my mixer.

[Alien8]

Nope. The original was designed with a "limiting" circuit to stop the feedback from doing just that - so that you can reap the benefit of not going deaf.

Lots you can do in the fx loop tho

[stiiiiiiive]

Hey Rooftree, welcome to the forum

I used to use a DMM with tap tempo I bought almost at the same time as my 104M. The DMM is quite wilder, yes. I liked that a lot when I did experimental music as you can go from a simple, tame delay to a howling feedback in 1 second. But finally, I switched to the 104M for of two reasons.

One is the sound I learn to love; the wildest it can go is nice to my hear now.
The second reason is that I play bass lines with one hand and harmonic parts with the other one. Having a more tame feedback knob is much more handy than one you have to touch very, very carefully if you don't want to deafen your audience. To say the truth I'm used to brush this knob with the tip of my foot wile playing and singing.

For more feedback try using the external loop with any boost/OD/fuzz. I think it will change the character but won't increase the volume as much as with the DMM though.

[Rooftree]

I can see how limiting the feedback circuit to make it less intense would be a good thing in many situations. It could be nice to crank feedback to 10 and let my hands move on to other things without worrying about sonic liftoff.

Now that I know it's behaving as designed, maybe there are other options for getting it to be crazier. Last night I hooked the 104 into my mixer on an aux send, with the return signal going into a channel strip. Tonight I'll see what happens when I feed the channel strip signal back into the aux send to the MF-104. Maybe feedback going into feedback might bring out something wilder.

This is a little OT but I'll mention what I like about the MF-104M:

- Adjustable drive on the input creates a nice, warm growl. Easily transforms a simple poly synth patch into a 60s buzzy organ. Or just a touch of drive can add a little bite or sparkle to arpeggios and melody lines.

- I believe that drive can be used independently of delay in Spillover mode, making the MF-104M behave as either of two pedal types: delay with or without drive, drive only.

- Short/long switch gives the option of brighter or darker tone

- And then there's the modulation section. I've had so much fun with this. And I'm only a couple of hours into using it. I expect I'll spend a lot of time learning the nuances of the mod section.

Back on topic:
I might pick up an inexpensive pedal to insert into the external loop. Any other ideas besides boost/OD/fuzz? Any favorites for under $100 USD?

[bichuelo]

Yes, the external loop might give extra balls to the feedback signal, you can use another moogerfooger with the drive up high and go into overdrive heaven!

Regarding the feedback, maybe doing a calibration procedure might help? http://forum.moogmusic.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22060&

[Alien8]

This might help...

I was messing with my 104Z, and cranked the feedback and external loop gain (patched out to in) and was able to achieve a much louder and wilder oscillation. It did find a max but was quite a dramatic change and volume increase - not as much as the EHX...

That said, put something the the fx loop to increase volume. My favs for the fx loop are ring mod, pitch shifting, and filters. Any Moogerfooger really. Bit crushing would be fun too, essentially ring mod tho.

[bichuelo]

I think the MF104z is quite different in this regard from the MF104M. I haven't made a straight comparison though, but I have tried both and the z seems more radical to my ears

[someones_ghost]

Surprised nobody has mentioned this, but the use of any expression pedal (I'm assuming any--I use the EP-2) allows you to go beyond the control parameter limits. So if you hook up an expression to the feedback jack in the back with the pedal not pressed down at all, turn up the feedback dial to 10, then press the expression down, you should get some wild feedback. It gets pretty loud though, so be prepared to control the output/mix.

[stiiiiiiive]

Hmmm nice tip!

As far as other effects in the feedback loop, an Ibanez LoFi -LF7 I think- provides gain/OD and Hi/Lo-pass filters, for about €40.

[bichuelo]

Surprised nobody has mentioned this, but the use of any expression pedal (I'm assuming any--I use the EP-2) allows you to go beyond the control parameter limits. So if you hook up an expression to the feedback jack in the back with the pedal not pressed down at all, turn up the feedback dial to 10, then press the expression down, you should get some wild feedback. It gets pretty loud though, so be prepared to control the output/mix.

Has anyone tried this with Minitaur/Taurus on the pitch CV? I can't try it until the weekend, but if it works it might give them a wider range, sort of castrato-bass

[stiiiiiiive]

No, I thinnk Someone_gost was speaking only for the 104M. I know it applies to others MF too.
The Minitaur/Taurus oscillator design does not allow going over the aded noterange, as far as I know.

[Rooftree]

I tried feeding the MF104M 100% wet output back into its input using my mixer. It got louder, more distorted and seemed to be doing more feedback. It was interesting, but not necessarily what I was looking for.

I like the idea of trying to get greater range for the feedback control via MIDI. I'll try that this weekend.

Thanks for the replies to far. Keep 'em coming!

[Bryan B]

You don't need to feed the output through a mixer and back into the input, they were saying try the feedback loop in/out jack. You should be able to get an input and output out of the feedback loop jack (because it uses a TRS jack to allow both).

[bichuelo]

You don't need to feed the output through a mixer and back into the input, they were saying try the feedback loop in/out jack. You should be able to get an input and output out of the feedback loop jack (because it uses a TRS jack to allow both).

Well I use both feedback loops, the internal one, and the mixer feedback. Both give me different colors, and I am able to place different effects in each, its very versatile.

[Rooftree]

You don't need to feed the output through a mixer and back into the input, they were saying try the feedback loop in/out jack. You should be able to get an input and output out of the feedback loop jack (because it uses a TRS jack to allow both).

Well I use both feedback loops, the internal one, and the mixer feedback. Both give me different colors, and I am able to place different effects in each, its very versatile.

That's interesting! I used mixer feedback because it was convenient since I already had the 104 patched through the mixer. I didn't realize that the two methods would sound different.

How exactly would I go about using the FB INSERT jack for this if all I want to do is feed the signal back into itself (not using another effects pedal)? Would I modify a TRS cable by shorting the T and S portions to each other?