MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

[radioland]

Hey fellow Moogers

Last night when I was awake with my 10 days old son (trying to to give my wonderful wife the opportunity to sleep a bit longer) I kept myself awake thinking about the long "lost" VCA/EnvGen-Moogerfooger . I hastily scribbled down my ideas and today I drew two little mockup faceplate plans.

I know that there have been many and better looking designs in the past years, and I have no real knowledge in electronics. But I love my herd of Moogerfoogers and like many of you I would love to have that sort of companion to them, so here are my thoughts...

Many concepts based on the cp-251 format, but I think the "MF-109M" should look like the other Foogers. Why? Moogerfoogers are aimed at guitarists, so this VCA/EnvGen-Fooger should address them as well as the synth nerds. Moogerfoogers already cover many common effects, and we have a pedal for guitarists that is a special VCF (the MuRF), a Pedal for guitarists that is a special VCO (the Freqbox), but the special VCA is missing. Some of the Minifoogers have big brothers (like Ringmod and Delay), but there is no big brother to the MF boost (VCA) or the MF trem (yes, I know about the 102). Thats where my idea comes in:





I`ll now explain my two mockups and their ins and outs.

EG: Take the MuRF sliders and give it the additional Delay and Hold stages that the Sub 37 has.

Gate sensitivity: Incoming signals trigger a gate, which triggers the EG. The gate sensitivity knob determines how loud a signal must be to trigger the gate. Fully clockwise, the gate/VCA is ON.

Gate length: This knob determines the length of the internally generated gate. When the Env./Gate Loop switch is ON, this knob determines the speed of the cycling.

Drive: Same as in other Moogerfoogers

Env./Gate Loop: This switch can make the gate and thus the EG looping. The Gate Tap Tempo foot switch, like the gate length knob, can determine the speed of the cycling.

Feedback: This is the "extra" knob in my design and is aimed at guitarists. Imagine how you can have your tones "standing" and modulate the amplitude to mimic for example an Ebow.

Output: Like on the other Moogerfoogers.

--> I know that only the output knob technically belongs to the VCA, that`s why I drew two possible designs...

Lights: The drive and bypass lights work like on the other Moogerfoogers. The gate LED lights up when a gate is open. It could be green with the internal gate, red when it is looping and tap tempo controlled, and orange with an external gate.

Connections:

- Audio Input
- Audio Output

-Gate/Trig in: To trig the EG with an external CV or Audio (say a drumbeat)
-Gate length in: Doubles the corresponding knob
-Gate sensitivity in: Doubles the corresponding knob
-Stage length in: Controls the delay, attack, hold, decay and release times, so you can shorten or widen the Envelope as a whole
-VCA level in: To make the VCA truly voltage controllable
-Feedback in: Think of the guitarists...

-Envelope out: Only one output - but who doesn`t at least have a cp-251
-Gate out: To give it even more modular flair

-Midi in: To rival the MP-201...

So what does this MF-109M give you:

-EnvGen & VCA for your Moogertron
-looping envelopes
-two tap tempo LFO outs (when Loop is ON), one of them multi-stage & multi-waveform
-complex tremolos
-automated or foot controlled volume swells
-gate effects like backwards reverb or staccato
-Ebow-style sounds
-Feedbacked sounds for all with no model D or Sub 37

Now, I don`t know how possible my ideas are, or how expensive such an MF-109M would be, or if this would make many Moogers happy. So tell me what you think of it.

Cheers, radioland

[radioland]

u-oh, I can`t attach the files. It says "Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached." Can somebody help me?

[Bryan B]

**Edited out how to post pictures information**
Glad you got to post your pics!

I think Moog should have an envelope generator and some sequencer type elements (trigger and voltage sequencers). The Dual Universal Slope Generator from Serge would be the perfect type of pedal for Moog to release (obviously they would add their own ideas to the mix not just copy that). I think the Lag is a bit archaic for proper envelope duties and a typical Modular would use at least 2 envelopes and include looping as an option (good thing they have that feature already developed on the sub37!). Another thing I think they could pull off is a frequency shifter and also a parametric EQ with voltage controlled sweep abillity! The MoogerFooger line-up could be unstoppable with these additions.

[radioland]

Thanks a lot Bryan! Just before I read your post I figured it out myself (with a little help from ask-leo ). The solution was of course to create an account on flickr... But hey, I was born in the 80s, so I don`t have the internet in my DNA .

cheers, radioland

[_DemonDan_]

I would love to see a Stereo (In & Out) Fooger offering AHDSR, multi-waveshaped
Tremolo with the option of Auto Panning, and Stereo Rhythmic Gating (Amplitude
version of MuRF), with the Rate controlled via Knob, Tap Tempo, MIDI CC, Gate Input,
and MIDI Clock (with the 22 Time divisions).

Envelope sensitivity for Rate Control is also very musical. As is amplitude-based
switching (with Glide) between two set Rates.

There are several products out there that each have some of the puzzle pieces,
but none have all of them:

Catalinbread Stereo Semaphore (discontinued for a mono version ;-(
http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/n ... 266068.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQEVEMxEsqA
(Wonderful choice of waves, and Shape adds so many more. But only Mono In, no MIDI.)

Gig-fx Pro Chop
http://www.gig-fx.com/products/pro-chop/
(Lots of musically useful features with MIDI, but only Mono In.)

Pigtronix Philosopher King
http://www.pigtronix.com/products/philosopher-king/
(Clever use of Repeating Envelope to make LFO Shapes, but no MIDI, Mono In/Out.)

HardWire TR-7 Tremolo
http://www.hardwirepedals.com/tr7-tremo ... erview.php
(Stereo In/Out, finally, and Tap Tempo, but no MIDI, and limited Waveshapes.)

Not only would this Fooger do all your standard stereo ADSR and Tremolo tricks,
but each Output could be used feed a different effect chain thus giving you
dynamic, rhythmic, or manual control over the blend of two effect chains.

An LFO Out would make it even more fun to connect with other Foogers, and
L/R CV Ins for Amplitude would allow it to become 2 VCAs of your Fooger Synth.

I know that I harp on the Stereo In/Out thing a lot, but it's disappointing to have
so many pedals that sound so good in Stereo (like 103, 105, 108) and then be put
in a situation where I have to make everything Mono except for the very last pedal.
Stop making me choose

[Bryan B]

I wanted to see what your sketches might look like, so I mocked them up for you. Not perfect, but here they are:



Then I thought they would be more performable with the rocker switches, so here those are too:

[EricK]

That looks really nice, would be even better with dual envelopes.

[Bryan B]

the MuRF has 8 sliders, so you could have a dual ADSR and not change much on this design.

[radioland]

Wow, Bryan, you`re the man! Of course I don`t mind you converting my lousy scribbling to convincing images. Thank you!
The idea of dropping the delay and hold stages and so be able to squeeze two ADSR envelopes into the same space sounds tempting. But then, only one could be used for the sound at the audio input, the other would only be accessible via CV out, unless you had multiple audio inputs and outputs on the MF-109M. Would that be convenient? And then you would have to skip up to three CV ins or outs of the maximum of 10 to make room for additional audio ins and outs and CV outs.

By the way, which of the two designs do you like better or do you think will provide an easier workflow? I prefer the first one with the drive knob in the center column as usual. And of course the loop switch has to be a rocker switch - I`d love to see a green one on a Moogerfooger one day.

Dan, I hear you... I have read through the many pages of CP-style mockups and requests for the missing Env/VCA Fooger. In my opinion, some ideas tried to squeeze in too many different things, others were too much of a niche product or too far away from the whole Moogerfooger concept. How would a Moogerfooger with two ADSRs, 8-step amplitude modulation array and controls for gating and LFO look like? I think that Moogerfoogers are what they are because of the endless possibilities they give you - and because of the limitations they have.

Thanks for joining the discussion, I will be pleased to read more thoughts and comments!

Cheers, radioland

[Bryan B]

Here is the latest revision with green rockers and a few minor tweeks to finish it up:

[latigid on]

Keep the 8 sliders and the last can be a bipolar level/amount control for the internal VCA. So the EG can be positive or negative.
Edit, okay that would make 7 all up...

I'm not so sure about the gate length control; wouldn't this be done with the Hold slider? Or am I missing something?

I like the design, although I'm off to modular land these days

[Alien8]

I'm sold. When / where / how / do I pay?

Instead of the length control, as it is slightly redundant (however pretty neat, maybe a CV or MIDI controlled item?) something else could be added. The one thing that is missing is some kind of pattern creation tool. The chopper, boss slicer, and a number of tremolos (empress) offer some kind of pattern manipulation. Many are presets, what if this had something variable that was one knob friendly with MIDI options inside to extend ability. Like a variable waveshape LFO or something that can be used to sync the trigger to. Or a MuRF engine that triggers based on a programmed pattern that we could of course manipulate.

The stereo aspect of this MUST be implemented... this would be a very useful sound design tool, and find lots of uses on pedal boards. The "pattern" could be applied to the stereo channels for panning & potentially phase manipulation etc. (Call this control "Offset" or "Axis"). One of my favourite things about MOOG gear is the re-amping ability and the pure analog tone that results. It makes digital recordings that lacked depth come alive, and this would be an awesome unit to do this with.

By the way - the marketing ploy for MOOG on this one is: The pedal that our customers designed. The first in the world...

[Bryan B]

I like a lot of the ideas I heard so far:
Make it stereo
Pan option
Bipolar amount slider (maybe make it left and right bipolar amounts to make it 8 sliders)
The MuRF style trigger pattern select knob

[latigid on]

It could also be programmed as a 8-step linear sequencer where each slider sets the VCA level.

They definitely keep an eye out here, several ideas like the Cluster Flux and MIDI MuRF were voiced on this forum!

[Alien8]

So what do we call it?

Stereo Envelope?

Envelereo

Since you bring those up - I'm thinking the audio path should rest somewhere between MuRF & ClusterFlux. Similar voicing, with similar stereo options.