Sub Phatty - My user experience

[IgorCristo]

Hi folks! With so much attention being put into the Sub37, I've decided to put my experience with the Sub Phatty, a "less advanced" Sub 37 (from what I've seen). I want to say that I like the sound of the SP (read Sub Phatty) and contacting Moog Music (mainly Amos) was easy and helpful... you'll understand it later.

I had my mind set to get a Minitaur before I got the SP, but I don't really know why I got it. Although I like it's sound, having a LP kinda made it redundant. This one (LP), have to my ears a better overall tone, wich I'm sure it's the opinion of a lot of LP users. The filters sound nicer, the envelopes are better and the overload is way better than the MULTIDRIVE thing.

It was said by other user that the oscillator section had a interruption in the waves that didn't exist in the LP. In fact, this is true, and it has something to do with the way the osc waveshape was originally made for the SP. On the LP the sweep is way better and uninterrupted, although the oscillators on the SP are clearer to my ears. This supposed interruption is kind of a step between saw and saw+square mix waves.

On the filter side, I have to say that mine had a limitation on the lowest range (and probably on the higher range too). When I closed the filter all the way down, I could still hear the very lower pitched notes, wich was a very bad thing for me... anyway, mailed Amos and he was very kind to help me to fix it myself (I live in Brazil and there's no authorized service here - the problem was a trimmer, I just had to turn it up a little bit). Now I have a normal filter range, wich was a little bit difficult to achieve (since the trimmer is very sensitive).

This 'problem' was one of the reasons that I began looking at it differently... after that first "new instrument gratification" I've tested every single part of it individually in a very critic way. The thing with it is that it seems to have a quality that just doesn't match the LP, and even less a Voyager (wich is way better than the LP in that department). I don't think that the SP is reliable enough for a longer period.

The side where I like it most is the envelopes and LFO, wich for me are a great improvement from previous Moog synthesizers. Being able to dial different LFO amounts to 3 destinations is simply great. The envelopes are fast, and although they're not as good as the ones on the LP, they have a larger range, and the reset option opens a whole new world of possibilities.

Feature-wise, I think the SP is a very capable instrument and I quite like the overall tone that I can get with it, but it's not a keeper. I see a lot of you who love it's sound, but I'm not one of them. Having both (wich now I know it's stupid, since they 'target the same sweet spot'), it's hard not to compare them, and although the extra sub-oscillator and a lot of other features make a difference in sound pallet, the SP is a replaceable instrument - mainly by other Moog synthesizers, such as the new Sub 37 - while the LP/Slim isn't (at least to me).

Feel free to judge and discuss...

[modoc_333]

Personally I have never been impressed by the LP. I know that sounds like a crazy thing to say here, but it's how I feel. Obviously the Sub 37 could replace a Sub. they are basically the same instrument.... that could also mean that it will have the same issues you found in your Sub. There aren't any in the wild yet so no one knows. I really consider these 2 to be ALMOST the same. similar to a Slim and a Little Phatty. I think the Sub series has a sound all it's own that the LP and Slim can't come close to. I think a Voyager could easily replace these too. The Sub can't do what the Voyager does, and the Voyager can't do all that the Sub can do. I think these 2 would be the 2 synths to cover all of your bases.... perhaps a Voyager and a Sub 37 would be best for versatility. For sound, the Sub and the Sub37 are the same basic sound engine. The LP and Slim just don't have a nitch anymore. I think this is why they discontinued it in favor of the Sub 37. just my 2 cents!

[Carey M]

I've owned a Voyager, a Little Phatty Stage II and now a Sub Phatty. I've also owned a Midimoog and a Micromoog. To me, the Sub Phatty sound and interface bests the LP, easily. And for many sounds it also beats the Voyager. There is just slightly more of that sizzle that the Midimoog had. My only gripe, soundwise, is the oscillator tuning... It's just too perfect. Other complaints are the limited modulation and the bloody two-octave keyboard

[stiiiiiiive]

I've been a Little Phatty daddy for almost three years now. I told this story several times, but I remember when it came out, I said to myself "What? Four knobs?... Come on Moog, serirously?...". A few years later I had a casual oportunity to play one in a shop and I was amazed how funny it was despite the light controls. A few months later I took an oportunity at a good price.
Four knobs, yup. But the principle is quite simple: press the button of the parameter you want to edit, and here you go. LED collars and different knob mode choices seal the deal to me as I don't have to bother with values being not matching the knob positions when changing a preset.

See, I was raised with a Clavia G2: same mecanism, except those have encoders. Many years laterI got myself a Lead and was pleased with the sound albeit confused with the knob position/real value discrepancies. This is -to me- an important limitation of modern synths: there were the montimbral oldies like a Model D, SEM, etc where the knobs not only set the parameter values but indicate them. Then there were patch memory and mutlitimbrality and this brought new interface weakness. You cannot visualize the real parameter when you change a preset or multitimbral part unless you have LED collars or a screen (blah! ).
I ended selling the Lead and keeping on using the G2 and thinking I'll never sell this one.

Back to Moog.

When the Sub came out, I was excited -except it has 2 octaves and that's a bummer to me as I play keys, I don't sequence. A friend of mine bought one and I've used it on a weekly basis for several months now, avoiding me to move my Little Phatty all the time.

First, I saw the good sides, which are real goods sides: can produce a variety of sounds, have many knobs! Good instrument.
Then I saw -again- this knob/parameter discrepancy factor, which is really anoying to me. To be true, if I was consulted for synth design, I think I might say "no LED collars? Give up the presets then…". However, for that paticular project, I can live with it as I don't tweak that much vs. I need presets.
A lately, I must say I could not achieve the sounds I had programmed on my Phatty. Maybe I should practice it more, but I feel kind of stuck with this Multidrive: there are some areas I can't seem to go to, some kind of beef I can't seem to bite. Yet I don't consider myself as a novice. PLus, as said before, the tunig is to perfect for me hehe.

I'm very excited by the next Sub37. It has all that I wanted in the Sub Phatty and even more. Yet the recent epiphany had me more skeptical about it: if it sounds just as the Sub, will I love it that much? Well, it has lots to offer: sequencer, arpegiator, duoparaphonycallitasyouwantIloveit,.. and.. oh! Not only Multidrive but Overload… Hmmmok, let's try when it's out Anyway.
BTW I don't think the Sub37 is to the SubPhatty waht the Little Phatty isto the Slim Phatty: the later are the same instrument differently cased. The Sub 37 offers definitely more that the SubPhatty.

Eventually, two nights ago, I switched back on my Little Phatty in order to try something. And I think just like IgorCristo I'm more pleased by the Overload than by the Multidrive. Matter of tastes. I fell it compresses less the sound and leads to less modern timbres variations -with respect to the Sub. I think I love it's slightly toy-esque interface: big buttons, big knobs, lights. With age I tend to prefer simplicity.

The Voyager is another case. About that one, my experience only covers the OldSchool version. No presets. The interface shows what you ear. Simple. Restful. Inviting. On the sound aspect, I would add it's less wild than the Little Phatty but allows more modulation exploration. Different instruments for different pleasures.
I would love th Voyager to have more sizzle too. I've also played a MG-1 and I definitely love its vintage, shiny, raw sound. But hey, let's enjoy diversity while other brands choose to repackage their engines -software or not- ending with too same-soudning series of instruments.

[IgorCristo]

modoc_333
Carey M
As you've said, I guess that this is really a matter of taste. On the overall, I think that the Sub is a great instrument, but I don't get that Minimoog vibe you're getting with it. Maybe you think like it because of the pre-filter saturation and also the "3 osc", but it sounds too polite and TUNED.

It's hard to explain, but I think that one of the problems is it's stability. If I had to put on paper what I really dislike, it would be much less than what I like... to me, it only really fails on the filter (I don't like how cutoff and resonance interact with each other).

Interface-wise, I think that the Sub is really better, and it's a great tool for creating patches - not so much to tweak live (since you get lost on where the knob originally was and the relative pot mode isn't as good as on LP).

stiiiiiiive
This is a really nice post. Thank you for your time on this!

As I can see you have a similar opinion as me, wich is nice to hear. I really like the overload thing on the LP, but it doesn't end there... to me, the Little shines on other things. Although I really like the Sub's oscillators and sub-oscillator, I see that the implementation of the waveshape circuit is much better on the LP, and so is the whole filter circuit.

On the oscillator side, the Sub really excels in possibilities such as VCO reset, linear detuning and a few others, and it's only flaw is really the waveshape circuit. The sound of the oscillators on the Sub are almost the same as on the LP, and they share the same sound character.

The Sub really differs from LP in the filter section... you just can't get the same juicy sweeps you get on the LP. Just can't. And it's not only because of the MULTIDRIVE vs OVERLOAD, they're different even without any level of it. To me, the Sub compresses the lower frequencies in a displeasent way when you raise the resonance. MULTIDRIVE also takes a lot of low-end from the sound and that's not nice.

Other than that, I think the Sub is really nice. Using your last comment, I really think that is nice to see new instruments rather than a company rehashing old stuff on new boxes. The creation of the "Sub line of products" is a nice move for Moog. At least, now we have several options to have fun with! Sonically, it's also interesting to have more options..... I'm still thinking if I'll get the Sub37 to replace the Sub Phatty or not, but I guess that I'll keep my money, sell the Sub and get a Voyager on the future.

Cheers!

[_DemonDan_]

...The {Sub Phatty} envelopes are fast, and although they're not as good as the ones on the LP, they have a larger range, and the reset option opens a whole new world of possibilities.

Hi Igor,

Just wondering if you've explored the the EG Decay Fast/Slow switches on both the Filter and Amp EG.

It may not help to get what you're after, but it's worth exploring if you haven't already.

(Since you've already tried EG Reset, it's likely that you have; but I'll mention it for others to try.)

My only gripe {with the Sub Phatty}, soundwise, is the oscillator tuning... It's just too perfect.

Hi Carey,

Again, you may have already done this but... Although it's not out front (like it will be for the SUB 37), the SHIFT function: Oscillator 2 Beat Frequency, in various combinations with the non-SHIFT Oscillator 2 Frequency, may get you more of the "not too perfect" tuning you're looking for.

[Carey M]

On the overall, I think that the Sub is a great instrument, but I don't get that Minimoog vibe you're getting with it. Maybe you think like it because of the pre-filter saturation and also the "3 osc", but it sounds too polite and TUNED.

Well, compared to other new Moogs, yes, I definitely do feel the Sub is closest to Moogs of olde. Except for the tuning stability. It still doesn't have THAT sound, but it is closer. How much does that matter to most people? Probably not a lot, or at all. But for me, I can nail all those old cheesy Moog sounds I love a lot easier with the Sub Definitely doesn't sound too polite to me, even if I mostly use osc levels around 5, like here:

https://soundcloud.com/matti-juhana/sub ... -sillyness

And even with the dead-on oscillators, you can get great sounding leads. Luckily they're not DCOs Love the resonance here:

https://soundcloud.com/matti-juhana/moo ... y-sequence

Are my percieved differences between the new Moogs huge? No, absolutely not.

[cl516]

+1 for Carey M. I also prefer the Sub Phatty.

[IgorCristo]

_DemonDan_
Already done that... I'm actually one of the guys who made a few presets for the editor during beta test and tested everything. Unfortunately, my "broken filter" probably affected the sound of the presets on other synthesizers. I'm in the IC preset folder!

Carey M
I understand your point of view, I just don't share the same opinion. Part of the harsh Minimoogy sound is probably due to the "more open" cutoff... I don't know why, but it's not the first time I've read this. Do you have a guess why is that?

cl516
Elaborate please!

[cl516]

sorry, i only meant that I personally prefer the Sub Phatty. but that i support the positive things that Carey M was describing about it. Not dragging anybody into my opinion, haha.

Anyway, there's just something about the tone of the Subphatty that I really love. It doesn't have to be multidrive all the time, it's still quite warm and analog. Mix that with the hi rate LFO and the looping env. and you have a pretty cool little machine. Plus it's small and compact, which for me is a plus over the heavy Voyager.

[Raizerpiano]

Hi everyone, I would like to contribute to this thread as a Sub Phatty owner, my first moog, but I have been playing keyboards for the last 30 years, mainly digital and VIs (Virtual Instruments), so I know a lot of stuff that is out there... All this time I have had all sort of things but never did have a moog, because they are so rare and utterly expensive in Brazil, but I have played some and still remember quite well the sound of a Minimoog model D that I found sitting in a friends bedroom some time ago. I know the Little Phatty quite well as this one was the one I was going to get, but the four knobs and its price being 50% more than the Sub sealed my decision towards the latter. I did try the MS-20 mini and I loved it, I confess, but I wanted that moog sound, but this one is on my list as well... The Minibrute was kind of an option, but It stays miles behind any moog. It is true that I have had some issues with mine, that non continuos waveshape thing, one key not properly in its place (a little bent to the left) and some other minor stuff, but I cannot explain how well it makes me feel when I can dial that sweet square lead sound with vibrato via a little pitch modulation and a lot of delay; a lot, if you know what I mean... Just incredible, Works perfect with some of my Roland Pads and an acoustic piano with a lot of reverb... I have by now tested almost everything in My Sub, all functions, all under the hood stuff, the editor, with Live, on Pro Tools, Reason and the only thing I kind of miss a little is an iPad editor that I can hook up via USB and do the under the hood work. I know that there are some out there, specially a good looking one on TBMIDIStuff, but it does not save presets and I think I am going to stick to the editor till there is an official Moog one, if it happens one day, if it doesn't, it's ok. All of this is to say that I am very happy with my synth and that it has the best sound for leads I have searched till today which I could really afford, Better than any VI. I am not very excited with the Sub 37, even though it has a lot more to offer.To me the SubPhatty is like bread, butter and champagne, (stealing this from a Chet Baker album title). I am ok with the fact of it having 25 keys, the up and down octave buttons are really nice positioned and I use them quite often. Mainly I play some notes and then maintain the envelope sustained via a press on the pedal that is hooked up onto the CV Gate In and the the fun journey of tweaking multiple knobs starts, it even gets me to Andromeda sometimes.... Can't see myself selling mine and less happy. If it happens to be stolen, I'll by another one, after I work some more 5 years...If I win the lottery and buy a Voyager, I'll keep both.

[stiiiiiiive]

...The {Sub Phatty} envelopes are fast, and although they're not as good as the ones on the LP, they have a larger range, and the reset option opens a whole new world of possibilities.

Hi Igor,

Just wondering if you've explored the the EG Decay Fast/Slow switches on both the Filter and Amp EG.

It may not help to get what you're after, but it's worth exploring if you haven't already.

Ah! This is another thing I noticed: the envelopes are quite shorter than on the Little Phatty. But if there is a setting, I'll try it. Thanks!

[Carey M]

Part of the harsh Minimoogy sound is probably due to the "more open" cutoff... I don't know why, but it's not the first time I've read this. Do you have a guess why is that?

I have no idea what yer talking about Nor do I get what the "harsh Minimoogy sound" is about. The Mini can do so much despite its architecture. If you do not like the Mini sound, that I can appreciate, even if I disagree. Same goes for the Sub P. I can appreciate it not being for everyone, absolutely.

[IgorCristo]

Carey M
Harsh was not the correct choice of a word........ I meant brighter, ballsier sound.
The basic oscillator sound really reminds me more of the Minimoog sound than the ones on the Little Phatty, but that's it. Everything else is very different, mainly the filter.

cl516
I understand... it's really a matter of taste. Thank you for your answer!

Raizerpiano
At first, I thought that the Sub Phatty would be everything the Little was and more, but in the end, that's not what I got. What really bugs me on the Sub is the filter, wich doesn't appeal me very much... this has nothing to do with the overall sound, you just get it when you compare both in a critic way. In a matter of fact, I'm not thinking of getting rid of mine soon... maybe in the end of this year.....



I have a new complaint. When you start to visit this forum, it's pretty clear that a lot of users are experimenting problems wich shouldn't exist... to me, it seems that a lot of these problem have something to do with quality control. Uneven keybed, faulty pots, MIDI problems, no sound problems, to name a few. Just take a look at the Phatty Forum and you'll see this too..... I don't know, but this bugs me a lot. I can't really trust this instrument for a long time.

Support-wise, we couldn't wish for nothing better than Moog Music...

[wacopacco]

I wouldn't go as far to say that they have poor quality control. A forum like this is THE main place for people to come with their problems. No matter what piece of gear it is, there will be issues and problems arising. I'd be more skeptical if this place had nothig but raving reviews and no issues mentioned.