Over Priced

Sweep · Post by **Sweep** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:59 pm

The XT is brilliant. Surprisingly easy to program as well, considering the sound-creating potential.

I've had a couple of problems with patch memories disappearing, though Roland haven't been able to duplicate the problem and it seems to have stopped happening, so I'm beginning to suspect it may have been power surges or something like that, and not a fault with the XT. But the synth to PC interface is excellent and I haven't lost anything I hadn't already got backed up. Even with that problem it's a great synth to work with, and if it does turn out to be a design problem I'd expect Roland will come up with a fix once it's been bottomed.

I think it's probably a synth that would appeal to a wide variety of people. There are factory patches that I've deleted that would probably fit beautifully into music I never play, and it also comes with things I can use in what I do, as well as very easily creating new patches that I can make great use of. So it'd work well in a range of styles.

It also comes with a vocoder card which has some useful keyboard choirs as well as a variety of good vocoder options, plus a card that emulates the Roland D50.

I played the original V-synth in a shop before deciding to pre-order the XT, and I've found I prefer the overall sound of the XT. That may well be due to the headphones I used in the shop, though, so I'm not sure if the XT does actually sound better. But in the shop I found I had to take the edge off the attack as otherwise it had a sort of honk to it - not a major thing, but there, and distinctive for the character of the sound. But as I say that may have been an accident of how I was hearing it in the shop. But certainly the XT sounds great to me.

Maybe I shouldn't be extolling the virtues of the XT on a Moog site.

But they're very different instruments. I think you may well be right about the Voyager price holding or increasing more than the Roland, but it's hard to say. I'd guess if there's a sought-after factor with the XT in the future it'll be a few years off, though, and the Voyager will probably just appreciate year by year.

ebg31 · Post by **ebg31** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:21 pm

suede wrote:The V synth sells for $2k and if you wait all that time to buy one on the used market there will be a more modern version to hit the streets, you see it is like this music and people are moving foward into the future not backwards like the Moog Crowd.

That would seem the case, if you could find modern instruments at ecconomical prices that could cover all the features of the classics. You can't get them in most of the gear on the market, today. I doubt that a software synthesizer could substitute even for the power of a PPG Wave, a Yamaha DX7, or an E-Mu Emulator - and they're digital!

suede wrote:I will let you have the last word on this over priced toy of a keyboard

Why not settle the score and get yourself off the roster of Moog dealers? You might lose one, or two customers, but it's okay. Also, please stop wasting the time of musicians who find nothing wrong with Moog gear!

Lengai · Post by **Lengai** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:06 pm

Oyster can you handle criticism without name calling ? typical amateur "musician" and I really don't think you could play circles around me, after listening to the 2 duds you put on the web I would be playing circles around you ! I am more interested in the mainstream and not absurd underground from people who take themselves waaaaaaaaay too seriously with their overpriced monosynth.

Suede,

Once again you've tipped your cards. If you are not a typical amateur musician and you can play circles around Oyster, why are you the one working in a music store? The only person taking themself waaaaaaaaay too seriously is you. The people on this forum have tolerated your immaturity even though you repeatedly attempt to hit below the belt. But, creating an emotional reaction to feebly justify your inadequte existence by creating the illusion of power has been your intent the whole time.

Yoyo Ma is absurd ! his cello sounds cheap to me, so it would not matter, but any real musician with talent who wishes to charm people with music and not try to impress them can make that cheap cello sound good.

The V synth sells for $2k and if you wait all that time to buy one on the used market there will be a more modern version to hit the streets, you see it is like this music and people are moving foward into the future not backwards like the Moog Crowd.

I will let you have the last word on this over priced toy of a keyboard

Suede, now you're contradicting yourself and you're tipping your cards. You said a real musician with talent can charm people and make a cheap instrument sound good, but waiting to buy a V synth from the used market is backwards. Using your own logic, it is preferable to wait and get a V synth on the used market because a real musician with talent can charm people with a cheaper product.

You have proven my point that your intent is a feeble attempt to feel powerful with your own words when you said that you, "will let MarkM have the last word..." MarkM nor anyone else requires your permission to do anything.

I would like to apologize to you Suede. In my first post to you I stated that I was sure that you were not a very unintelligent person. I was wrong.

ebg31 · Post by **ebg31** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:24 pm

Some people are so smart, they don't know how stupid they are.

MarkM · Post by **MarkM** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:31 am

suede wrote:The V synth sells for $2k and if you wait all that time to buy one on the used market there will be a more modern version to hit the streets, you see it is like this music and people are moving foward into the future not backwards like the Moog Crowd.

I will let you have the last word on this over priced toy of a keyboard

A great sounding instrument now is a great sounding instrument in the future. The violin, piano, flute, etc. have continued to endure over the centuries. And so shall the Moogs, the Arps, modulars, and all the other classic distinctive sounding synths that have contributed to music.

sinus · Post by **sinus** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:03 am

I think buying a Voyager is a verrry (scuse me this is my german accent) emotional decision, hence we are dissapointed when its not 300% perfect.
But I don´t think it´s overpriced.

There is only two states for a synth like the Voyager:

You can buy it in a store for a lot of dough.

You can not buy it in a store, because there was no company taking the risk to produce a luxary synth with big knobs and good components, programable……like the Moog.

And of course cheaper synths sell quicker…

also I think the discusion about being a pro musician or not is… I don´t know…
who or what disides whether you are a pro or not, the amount of money you make with musik? How many records, gigs or TV specials you´ve done? If you have your audience in the underground scene, why not…? or just play for pleasure…why not?
Music was always my hobby, but without realising I became a pro over the years.
Every musican was a beginner once…whats the point?

miket156 · Post by **miket156** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:38 am

The Voyage is a "lot" of money. But as I said before, when you compare it to the Model D price in the seventies, its not out of line. I don't earn the kind of money I would need to buy one, so I haven't.

The alternative is not to have any RA's at all. Moog can't pump out manufactured synths like Yamaha does on a production liine. The Voyage is pretty much built by hand. That's not cheap.

It sounds great, is well built, and is a quality instrument. If you can afford one, buy it. If you can't afford one, don't throw stones at the people that want one, have the money, and buy it.

Mike T.

martin · Post by **martin** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:35 am

maybe we should just call the voyager expensive, not overpriced. i think it is indeed expensive. but so is any high-end device on this planet.
it is an extremely good sounding piece of kit, well built and expandable.

i have had some trouble with my unit which, from a consumer's point of view, is not good, no matter if you're german and expect something to be perrrfect.

as an expensive intrument, it should not have these bugs inherent, especially when you have it sent round the world, and the customer has to send it back to the shop and have to wait a month to get it fixed.

as for sales and repair, there should be more moog dealers around, not less. i would have been extremely pleased if there would have been an irish moogfixperson, in dublin.

i think moog music would be well advised to establish a more comprehensive repair network worldwide, so that customers could bring their baby to reliable, certified moog repair people if something should break or need upgrading, such as the new OS with the thing you need to build in, if you feel intimidated to do it yourself.
that would certainly more than justify its expensive price.

martin

Kevin Lightner · Post by **Kevin Lightner** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:52 pm

While I agree there should be more service centers for Voyagers and MF's, I'm not so sure about the vintage stuff.
I'm listed as a Moog service center for the vintage stuff and am a Moog dealer, but I'm not even authorized to do warranty repairs on Voyagers.

The problem is one of experience, training, parts, insurance and other aspects that need to be dealt with. Moog can't authorize people that haven't any experience and training is too expensive for one or both parties.
There's not enough Voyagers sold, and then not enough broken of those, to warrant flying techs in or a rep out to countries for training.

But in consideration of the Ferrari analogy, you can't and shouldn't get your Ferrari serviced just anywhere. This should be understood before the purchase is made.
Handcrafted items made in small numbers are like this, no matter what the product. If you want the best service, the factory is always the best choice.
They can do things no one else can and if they mess something up, they can replace it perfectly.

miket156 · Post by **miket156** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:40 pm

Kevin:

If you aren't an authorized service center for the Voyager, that really says a lot. I know you're a tech of great knowledge and experience, so where does that leave the others that don't have your credentials? There has been a trend over the last ??? years to have a central service center and ship your KB off somewhere like that to get it repaired/upgraded. In Moog's case, shipping it to the factory would be a plus. A Voyager can't be put in the hands of your average mom and pop music shop for service.

Mike T.

martin · Post by **martin** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:19 am

regarding the service centers - why would it not be possible to train people to be able to service the voyagers? i liked the part of "not enough [voyagers] broken to warrant such a thing" bit. says a lot about the quality. but in time, the units inbvariably will require repairs. i think a company must be customer focused and see how a voyager owner will hate to part with their voyager and ship it someplace remote. i also don't see why there would be any reason to look down on socalled mom&pop shops. there are plenty of places & cities that have big music shops and plenty of talented inhabitants that will be able to learn such thngs. i know that young medical students go into heart surgery. even in middle sized towns. and repairing voyagers can't be that hard to learn for any talented young engineer.
as a consumer, i would appreciate it if it were possible to just go into town and check out my big music place and ask the techies there if they had time to check out my voyager's touchscreen or something. just like i'd ask my GP if they have time to take a look into my ear or whatever. it's a matter of training.
where there is a will there is a way.

ebg31 · Post by **ebg31** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:50 am

I seem to remember seeing a Voyager in the "service center" of the place where I've lately gone to buy gear. It was in 2004, only a year after the Performer Edition was unveiled to the public. I'm sure that a) this guy was an authorized Moog repairman and b) the earlier Voyagers were more likely to suddenly need repairing and updating, to flush out the bugs.

Chances are, the Moog production staff have ironed out most of the bugs, so, unless a musician, or roadie is tremendously frivilous with swinging their Voyager off of a truck and onto the pavement, those things are meant to last much longer than a Model D, without needing service and repair.

miket156 · Post by **miket156** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:59 am

Martin my friend, I get your drift. Let me qualify my comments I made in the last several posts. Sure, it would be great if you could walk into your local dealer and have them give your Voyager a once over. There's a lot of reasons that isn't going to happen any time soon. I'm not looking down on mom and pop music shops. But from my experience, mom and pops can't compete, and can't keep up. Most of them don't do any service anymore. They have a limited local market so they don't have the $$ resources. A good tech has to be paid well or he's gone. In a limited market, hell, even in a fairly large city, how many Voyagers are going to require service?

If you've read Kevin Lightners comments, he's not even a certified Voyager tech. That man has YEARS of experience, that's what he does for a living. It's not financially feasible for Moog or most music centers to service the Voyager.

As far as your analogy of heart surgery and getting your Voyager, I can say with confidence there are a LOT more people that need heart surgery than people that own Voyagers and need service. And, you know what heart surgery costs? My sister had heart surgery a few years ago, and you could buy a warehouse full of Voyagers for what that cost.

Mike T.

martin · Post by **martin** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:10 pm

ok maybe the heart surgery analogy was not quite polished.

in many cities around where i live you can get qualified BMW or mercedes service.
Having established that the Moog products are expensive, I still do not quite see why there can not be a decent local network of qualified repair people. If an instrument is costly, such as the MMV, where does the cash go? into the material? the wood? the cirvuitry? r&d? i see now that service is not a priority, but quality of the product itself - this is highly commendable.
what is wrong with getting a localized service network running? is this absolutely impossible? what about the charitable foundation for the advancement of electronic music? that's where the money goes? hmpf.

many companies create low-quality stuff and blow a whole lot of dough into customer supprt centers and stuff like that.

wouldn't there be a golden middle way? especially for victims of early, bugged units. as i stated, these things were buggy, and i had the impression, i should better bugger off rather than demand what i paid for in the first place and what i had expected to get.

somehow, i smell a fish here. just can`t seem to understand why service is so underrated here.

martin · Post by **martin** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:25 pm

oh, and by the way, if heart surgery is way more expensive than moog repair, then surely there must be a way to get a network up and running. imagine how much status a certified moog engineer would have - plus maybe it would boost sales if you knew you had your moog man right near you.
i suspect that there is just no interest in a decent service network. and that, to be honest, is unfair towards those who purchased an early MMV for the same prrice or even more than what a brand new, fully working unit would cost today - without the bugs.
that's my whole point. i feel unjustly disadvantaged here.
please remember - i am not trying to flame or yap about this, it is just a case of of being unfairly treated.