Patch to emulate Taurus

[dhjdhj]

I need to emulate the sound of a Taurus pedal, particularly the sound used by Bands like genesis for that low subsonic bass that is used on songs like Fly on a Windshield.

I know nothing about the Taurus, hoping someone could point me at an example patch for an old school.

Thanks,
D

[till]

I am owning the Voyager and the Moog Taurus III. And there is a certain difference in sound.

Especially the detuning sounds different. While non-Taurus synths produce a slow beating visible in the the summed amplitude of the oscillators, the Taurus is way more linear over time during a slow beating detuning.
Another detail, often underrated is the difference how the oscillators are detuned:
The Voyager and most other Moogs and all 1V/oct synths got a detune that is based on a musical interval. So the frequency difference of two oscillators changes proportionally to the pitch you play. The original Taurus and the Taurus III use a steady detuning, called "Beating". The frequency difference is always the same and does not change with the pitch you play. So a slow detuning will not double its beating frequency pattern if a note one octave higher is played.
So there is a reason, why people own a Voyager and a Taurus III if they are into the real thing.
You might get a sound that is a bit closer to a Taurus then other sounds. But you would spot the difference easily if you are into these synth sound details. And even the Minitaur is not making a Taurus III obsolete. But it is the best thing to get the Taurus sound without paying more for a vintage original or a discontinued Taurus III.

The Taurus II never got the bass quality of the original or the version III. This is again due to the detuning the the way the volume changes during the detuning beating cycle.

[dhjdhj]

Well, the good news is that this particular song mostly needs a low E throughout the main section, then an F#, a B (just for a few bars) and then back down to the F just above the low E.

So the beating (very interesting by the way, I did not know about that) will not matter too much, particularly as we will be in a live situation.

So I'm more interested in an approximation for what waveforms to use for the oscillators, approximate filter freq and Q, and any important envelope settings.

That will be good enough for our needs.

[EricK]

Sawtooth, open the filter all the way, no resonance, detune ever so slightly.

That is about as fat as you can go unless you want to take the mixer out/filter in jack and take a patch cable to the audio input and then overdrive the filter via the audio input mixer.

[_DemonDan_]

While non-Taurus synths produce a slow beating visible in the
summed amplitude of the oscillators, the Taurus is way more
linear over time during a slow beating detuning. The Voyager
and most other Moogs and all 1V/oct synths have a detuning
that is based on a musical interval. So, the frequency
difference of two oscillators changes proportionally to the
pitch you play. The original Taurus and the Taurus III use a
steady detuning, called "Beating". The frequency difference
is always the same and does not change with the pitch you
play. So, a slow detuning will not double its beating frequency
pattern if a note one octave higher is played.

Although I'm not a Voyager owner (yet), I address this issue
on a lot of other synths by sending some of an inverted voltage
from the keyboard tracking to the detuned OSC's pitch such
that its Detune Amount is continually decreased as you play
higher and higher up the keyboard.

Obviously it's not a perfect solution, but it does ease up on
the rapid beating when you play higher on the keybopard.

[squonkers]

@ dhjdhj,

Are you playing Supper's Ready?

I agree that the fast beating issue isn't really going to be significant, partly because of how the part is played (if it's SR); only until you get to those last sustained notes in the final section would it matter. But you can also just use one VCO... it doesn't have to be a dual vco part. I have played Genesis for over 20 years in a tribute here in LA and the best bass pedal sound we ever got (no offense to Moog) was actually on a cheap set of Crumar single oscilator pedals. My current bass player has the Taurus III and honestly, they are lost in the mix unless you dumb it down ot one ocsilator.

I agree with whoever said Sawtooth... that'l work. But don't open the filter all the way... all you're going to get in the mix of the band is a buzz.

That's my 2 cents.

[dhjdhj]

No --- I wish we were, I love that song, second only to Cinema show.

It's actually a new band featuring some of the original musicians from Gabriel's early albums. We are playing at B.B. King in NYC next week end to kick it off.

http://www.bbkingblues.com/bio.php?id=1933

I'm actually not allowed to say anything about the setlist other than it will be be mostly songs from the early Gabriel solo albums.

I ended up using the Tauras patch on a SampleMoog which was very conveniently on sale for about $30. It will be fine.

[CZ Rider]

Hey D, good luck with that gig, looks to be a fun night out. Wouldn't mind seeing that one.
My experience with massive bass always leads back to the speaker used to reporduce the sound, more than anything. After all, with a synthesizer or any electronic instrument, it is the speaker that produces the sound. Even a real Taurus will not sound that great without something pushing some sub-sonic air waves.
Back in the mid 70's, I could simulate a subway train passing underneath with a Minimoog, a Fender Bassman head and a Cerwin/Vega 18" cab.
So no sub-audio = no Taurus like bass. Still remember seeing John Wetton playing with UK, pressing down on the Taurus pedals and literaly shaking the walls. Just as much of a feeling as it was a sound.

I address this issue
on a lot of other synths by sending some of an inverted voltage
from the keyboard tracking to the detuned OSC's pitch such
that its Detune Amount is continually decreased as you play
higher and higher up the keyboard.

That's brilliant way to do it really! Linear detuning is another term for it. I tune my 901 oscillators this way all the time, as Moog put all the controls right on the front panel to do this. As Till stated, in a perfect 1 volt per octave the beating between two detuned oscillators gets faster as the frequency increases. But if the one oscillator is not quite set at 1 v/oct compared to the other, this even beating over a wide frequency range can be achived.
I do not have a set of original Taurus pedals here, but do have the T2 and T3 here. Had to re-read the T3 manual to see if that "Beat" actually was this linear detuning control. But as I suspected the "Beat" is just a simple fine tune to the coarse tune "B Frequency". When the T3's have two oscillators detuned, the beating increases with frequency. The stock "Taurus 3" patch has a slow LFO modulating at about 1 cycle every 2 seconds. And two octaves up still gives that same rate giving the illusion the beating is even. Makes me wonder now if a T1 would do the same?
The phase cancellation is another area where the Taurus does well and is tough to emulate. Even on the bass monster Minimoog, with only two 32' range oscillators both with a saw wave, you can get these dips in volume where the oscillators cancel each other out. But on a Mini, just add the third oscillator, and it's a magic animation the way the three oscillators interact. The Taurus 3 though does not get that deep valley of cancellation with two closely tuned oscillators. Almost as good as the old 901's, but those are rock solid with very little phase cancellation between two oscillators. Not sure why the bass on the 901's are so solid? Probably what Moog was trying to copy back in the 70's with the original T1, along with the way the 901's beat evenly when patched with Linear Detune.

[thealien666]

Had a listen to that song and, from what I hear, I can replicate that particular Taurus 1 sound very easily on my Minimoog D. And you should be able to the same on the Old School without breaking a sweat.

1 oscillator only, set to 32' octave, around 70% pulse width waveform (the middle "square" wave on a Minimoog D), low cutoff filter frequency (almost to the point of getting a sine wave out of the filter), 50% keyboard tracking on filter, slight VCA attack time, a little slower release ( around 300 milliseconds).

This should sound pretty darn close to the Taurus 1 sound used on that Genesis song.

Listening carefully, I didn't hear any beating or detuning on the original. Unless it was very slow and I couldn't make it out since the notes are played for short periods on the downbeat.

Agreed that it takes a powerful PA system, capable of subsonic performance to get the "shaking the walls" effect, though.

Here's what my patch sounds like (40 seconds excerpt from the original sound with my patch mixed in). At the 30 second mark the original recording dies down to show the isolated Minimoog Taurus patch, and rises back up again:

http://soundcloud.com/thealien666/genes ... ly/s-azxmN

note: the detuning heard in that sample is the result of a detuning between the original recording and my Minimoog D. It wasn't present in the original recording by Genesis. Since I didn't have access to the master recording, I couldn't not substitute my "Taurus 1" for the original, but only add it to it, unfortunately...

[dhjdhj]

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions, really appreciated.
Since my rig will be DI'd to the mixer, I'm totally dependent on the system at the club for the sound. But I'd be surprised if the system there couldn't handle it.

[thealien666]

BTW, the original Taurus 1 on the song "Back in N.Y. C." sounds a little different than the one on "Fly on a Windshield". There seems to be detuning on that one.

As for the club sound system not being able to render wall shaking bass, maybe you could bring a powered home theater sub-woofer to help for the Taurus patch ?

[dhjdhj]

I'm told that Genesis was using Dewtron (spelling?) pedals before they got the Taurus

[thealien666]

Aaaahhh yes then. That explains a lot. Since the Mister Bassman from Dewtron was a single oscillator bass pedal. Probably with a triangle waveform.

Even easier to reproduce on a Voyager Old School. One oscillator set on triangle waveform, at 32' octave, wide open filter, sustain 100% and no attack no release on VCA.

That's about it.

[MC]

I'm told that Genesis was using Dewtron (spelling?) pedals before they got the Taurus

That is correct. Gabriel era Genesis used the Dewtron pedals. The Taurus was not even in production until after Gabriel left the group.

The reason why the Taurus has minimal phase cancellation is the unique coupling between VCF and VCA, the signal through VCF/VCA was pretty hot, which put the VCA - made from a not-so-high-fidelity OTA - in subtle overdrive mode. It's not full-out-balls-to-the-wall overdrive, it's very subtle yet contributes to that solid Taurus beef. It's also sort of an inherent compression effect. When I visited Moog for the T3/T1 comparision, I asked Cyril about the VCF/VCA/OTA configuration and he confirmed that it was replicated in the T3. No other moog product has this configuration, with the possible exception of the Minitaur which I have not yet had flight time on.

Haven't own the 900 modular or studied schematics in depth, but I can confirm that the VCA is also not-so-high-fidelity. VCA technology was in its infancy back then and tended to be "dirty" sounding. The technology didn't get high fidelity until the mid 1980s, after the classic analog era. Many modern analog system use the better modern VCAs and they wonder why it doesn't sound like the old stuff.

[fivelsdal]

Not that it will matter very much, but if you look at the waveform of the Taurus 1 in a scope, you will find that it's not a saw - but a ramp wave. It could however matter some on how the waves behave when detuned. The steady beating described above boggles me a bit. I'd like to know how that is done.