^^^^^^
Thanks for the thorough reply. I was listening to a bunch of model d videos yesterday on youtube. I will probably have to get one just based on those videos. Pretty amazing sound. I’m not new to synthesis anymore but your post made me realize how much I still have to learn mostly considering the Mother 32. I’ve got two of them and have no idea what I’m doing. I just use them for drones basically. Time has been a factor in getting to know those synths and the layout is far less intuitive than the sub 37 for me to use. The sub is laid out in a way that makes understanding how it works really obvious.
As far as the sub 37 being dark that is the often heard word on many forums. I play bass with it in my band and it has given a really dark mood and feel to the whole band (we like that) Its a bass heavy band. It does seem darker than the Mothers to me but I suppose a lot has to do with how and what you are using them for. No doubt the sub 37 can sound really aggressive but I almost never go there with it.
All in all though I am thinking the model d is a must have and that might turn the sub 37 into a part time drone machine and then I am not sure I will need the two mothers anymore…
Sub Guy,
You will find that a knob-per-function interface synth like the Voyager or Model D is going to be very straight-forward with helping you learn synthesis. The less under-the-hood functions there are, the easier it is.
Modulars are even better teaching tools because you have to physically route every signal yourself, whereas on the Model D they are already pretty much hard-wired. Those aren’t always the best options for everyone though.
No doubt, synthesis has a difficult learning curve, and the best place to start is with the nomenclature.
Try not to get discouraged though, because you might find that you listen to your own sounds differently than you listen to other people’s sounds. You might find out that the stuff you are doing sounds better than you think. The reasoning behind this is that you hear your sound take shape from the totality of knob-turns that it took to get there. So you know that one slight adjustment changes the sound in a way, and a slight adjustment somewhere else adds a texture that is totally different and begins to take the sound off in another direction. It is easy to get caught up in this.
It is very similar to editing photography. You can spend a long time adjusting every little color setting that you end up having cycled through several different iterations of “perfect” half a dozen times. But when you see another’s photo, you see only the end result. So it’s easy to listen to your own sounds with a different set of ears than you hear someone else’s.
I don’t get discouraged at all about my capabilities. I have a lot of patience and also just really enjoy the process of getting better at synthesis. But When i hear some people talk about what they are doing and listen to the music they make I can see how far I have to go. On the other hand simplicity is my strong suit… am really looking forward to getting the model d and hope its not redundant after already having the sub 37.
If you’re essentially a bass guy then I certainly wouldn’t discourage you in getting a Model D - it has a legendary, powerful bass sound. Probably the best bass sound of all Moogs, except for the modulars. I don’t blame you for finding the Mothers a bit overwhelming - they offer a vast array of possibilities but you need to know your stuff regarding the classic subtractive synthesis model to get the best out of them. I don’t blame you if you don’t want to bury your nose in theoretical tracts or waste time watching dubious YouTube videos that claim to teach the theory.
It would be a tragedy to relegate your Sub-37 to a ‘drone machine’ - it’s a fantastic synthesiser that deserves much more.
My suggestion to you:- sell the Mothers, and the Sub-37 and get the new Model D - don’t compromise, otherwise you will never be happy.
I’ll just add one more thing… before you consider getting rid of your Sub-37, make sure you play the new Model D for comparison.
Well I am getting the model d for sure. Its already on pre order with sweetwater. Ill have to wait a good while to decide what to do with the rest of my rig though. We use a lot of drones in our band and usually I use the Mothers for that and then play some higher pitch keys during the bass drones. I am primarily a bass player though as I said. It would be hard to get rid of the sub 37 though till I hear what the model d can do. The paraphonic capability of the sub is actually quite powerful and mystical sounding and there are some incredible tones you can get out of the sub 37 overall.
One concern I have about switching to the model D is that I have found that the 18 pole option on the Sub 37 filter is what I am using ALL the time for my sub 37 bass and I know the model D does not have that option. Also I am using feedback turned up about halfway and also multidrive about a third of the way in my standard bass sounds. I like those settings and then roll the filter cutoff back to just above 320hz as a beginning point. Also for songs and not jamming I use oscillator reset button and two oscillators. That way there is some grit and fatness to the sound but its just barely there due to the filter cutoff. I haven’t been able to find a bass setting that is as nice when the filter is set to 20 pole and no overdrive or feedback. The D cannot do any of this except feedback but then only at full power rather than being able to adjust it. So I will only be able to tell if the reported aliveness of the sound of a Model D can be better than the sub 37 by having one for a while. I may end up selling the D for all I know…
Ill just have to wait and see-- it may be that I should keep all of it and just use it at my preference.
And there, in a nutshell, you have the great flexibility of the Sub-37 over the very limited Model D.
The D (even the new one) is a fairly primitive synthesiser. I sounds fantastic (which is of course the main thing) but it is severely limited in its sonic pallet and sound-creation capabilities. I’ve owned and restored several classic Model Ds, and have no great hankering to own another.
Yep and only owning one for a while will answer whether or not the Model D will work out or not for the way I play. I THINK I can hear that special magic in the model D demos i’ve heard and that may be a very different world when compared to the sub 37. Ill know soon enough. If the pole selection and overdrive are not a problem and the bass is there for me and my band then the rest of the limitations won’t matter because I really do use the sub to play bass and do SOME trippy stuff also – but I can use the model D for all of those purposes.
If someone wants a Telecaster and a vintage tube amp, they are doing so for tone. Those guys aren’t complaining if their guitar isn’t midi equipped with different tunings going to a modern modeling amp with tons of effects.
The Model D wasn’t designed to be flexible, it was designed to get the modular tone to working musicians who couldn’t afford a modular or couldn’t figure out how to use one. It’s not an instrument that one goes to for modern synthesis techniques. If someone didn’t have a synth, a Model D might not be the one I would recommend. But if someone has other means to perform complex synthesis and wants a tone machine, then absolutely the Model D will deliver.
I don’t own and haven’t played a Sub 37, but I own a Model D, and other modern Moog synths, and I heard a Sub 37 on Stevie Wonder’s PA system when he came through last year. It had the recognizable Moog sound, but it didn’t “pop.” Everytime that I wasn’t paying attention and they used the Sub37, I immediately remembered that there was one up there. It doesn’t move anything inside me like the Model D does. The D’s oscillators are simply more raspy.
The more I think about the uses I have for a synth the more I think it is sound quality that matters most to me and not flexibility. As an experiment I’ve been using my sub 37 in panel mode and not using any of the functions that I would not have with a model d. My use of the sub 37 is as a bass instrument-- it is an instrument. Since I play in a live improvisational setting exclusively and the music is folksy jam music I cant really think of a function I have to have that isn’t on the model d. For effects during our haunting stuff or even during our spacey jams all I really use is pitch bend, some LFO modulation, filter cutoff modulation, and octave shift (which will be trickier on the model d but doable). The rest is done by choosing the right notes that don’t fit in a good way.
I think if I were doing electronic music the limited functionality of the model d might matter more to me but for my uses the model d is more flexible than a Rhodes bass piano or a bass guitar would be- drones, filter cut off, different wave forms to choose from and a wealth of other settings just give me a ton of range when compared to those other instruments.
Over the years, I’ve realized that functionalities, possibilities are not what I most use when playing. I just like the idea of being able to do many stuffs, but when it comes to playing, I become lazy/focused and pay more attention to tone and notes. Kind of back to essentials.
Though I feel I cannot get rid of that old fantasm of the beast of an instrument that can do so much. Even if I changed a K26XX for a Nord Electro, even if I chose not to go Sub37 and stick with LP - because of the sound mainly. It’s weird how the mind can go in both directions.
Some day, I’ll play bass lines in a rock/pop/folk band with only one synt
To be fair I do also play two mother 32’s in my band. If the model d works out Ill be getting rid of either the mother 32’s or the sub 37 but not both. I still need a drone machine while playing baselines.
I finally received my Model D and it definitely has a brighter and more powerful tone than the SUB 37. Its missing the bells and whistles of the SUB 37, but when it comes down to making tracks it sounds excellent. I put both through an oscilloscope and the Model D is very buzz at the peaks, as in the peaks are moving slightly differently than the waves. I think that shows how it has a different character than most.
I love the Model D. At first I wasn’t so sure-- it sounds very different than the Sub 37 or the Mother 32’s. I keep my rig small so am not willing to keep the Sub 37 and the Model D and chose the D. The D just has a really big sound and it is something that really stands out about it especially after you play it for a while. It just has a certain character that is incredible. Overall tone-wise it is superior to the Sub 37 IMO.
Two things I miss slightly about the sub 37 are the dark earthiness of its character, and its feedback and overdrive functions which sound superb. I’ve got an MF drive pedal on the way to hopefully make up for some of that.
I already have a Sub37 and two mother32s and just received the reissue Minimoog a few days ago. The mother32s nicely complement a smallish Eurorack system I have, so I won’t be getting rid of those. And I love the Sub37. It has a great sound overall and I really like using it’s ‘modern’ capabilities, especially: Duo mode, dual LFOs, the sub oscillator, extensive modulation routing, continuously variable waveforms, the arpeggiator, easy sequencing, looping envelopes, being able saving patches that I’d hate to lose, etc. I have no intention of getting rid of it. My decision will be whether to keep the Model D. There was no way to try it out beforehand, so I ordered from a vendor who has a generous return policy. I am now putting it thru it’s paces and will need to decide in the next week or so whether to keep it or return it.
I like the Model D a lot. It scratches an itch I had for a long time; I first saw/heard Minimoogs as a teenager in the 70s, but of course they were completely out of reach for me then. Of course it has a great sound overall, and I love the ease and simplicity of navigating around the panel. The new features are really nice to have: I use the new LFO all the time, so I can use Osc3 for fattening the sound or providing an extra detuned interval for chords. I love how easy it is to do great-sounding things with the 3-oscillator mix. It’s great having the extra CV ins/outs on the panel. It provides extra modulation capabilities, and I’m able to use the D as a CV keyboard controller for a MU modular (55-space Synthesizers.com). It integrates very well with the modular system and the two complement each other well. As great as it sounds, and as much as I like it, It is nonetheless more limited IMO than the much newer Sub37 design. So, I’m wrestling with whether or not to keep it. I can afford to keep it, but still, $3500 is a lot to spend on something this ‘optional’ (considering the capabilities I already have with the Sub37, etc).
I have the Sub37 and model D side by side, running thru the same PA system. I already know there are things the Sub37 can do that the older model D design will not support. The question is, will the model D do things I can’t get on the Sub37? There are certain round/fat/juicy/warm tones I can easily dial up on the D… So I suppose I’ll begin putting together some of these Model D patches I really like, then try to replicate them on the Sub37 to see how close I can get. Should be interesting… I’m kind of rooting for the Model D!
It will be cool to hear your comparisons and read your insight on both. Personally I returned the 37, got the new D, got a VXL, and are anxiously awaiting the Phat Poly. Kinda cool to see if both 37 and D retain their value down the road, my sound banking is on the D … .
I am very interested in hearing what you decide and why. The Sub 37 is a hell of an instrument that is for sure. It took me a while to decide on the Mini over the Sub 37 (wont keep both) and I did so mainly because I thought the overall tone was better on the Mini but some of the features on the sub 37 are really nice to have. I ended up with an MF Drive to add to the Mini and that cinched it for me as far as getting all of the darker muffled bass and over driven treble tones out of the Mini that I was getting out of the Sub 37-- Not the same exact character of muffled bass or overdrive but still quality. The only thing I really still miss is the continuously variable wave forms available on the sub 37 but I think the sheer quality of sound coming out of the Mini trumps that feature. I dont use the sequencer so not missing that at all.
One thing you might try that would work great in the studio but is not practical for my live playing purposes is to run the audio out on the mini through the sub 37. This improves the modulation capabilities of the Mini greatly. You get both LFO’s effecting the filter, the sub 37’s rather darker filter and multiple filter slopes plus overedrive and feedback. It is a lot, and sounds wonderful.
I would say that each of these synths holds its own niche and place as valuable and powerful instruments.
