Sub 37 Tuning Scales Problem

The Moog Forum Moog Beta Forum
1

Hi!

I recently discoverd the download link of the Phatty Tuner and so my friend LuLoop and me were busy checking that out.
Great tool, we could create our own tunings and load it to the Sub37. So far so (very) good.

In the Sub37 are 32 entrys in the scaling list, 0 to 16 are factory scalings. In the Phatty Tuner are only 10 tunings as presets (0-9) the rest is called “default”.
We (accidentally) choose preset #12 in the Phatty Tuner and pressed send.
The Sub37 tuning list entry changed to “default” and the original tuning was overwritten. That’s ok, but
we could’nt restore the original tuning in any way. Much better, we didn’ even know which tuning at #12 was the original, because we didn’t looked at it in that moment.

Neither the tunings are stored with the preset nor with the firmware. We downgraded the Sub to Firmware 1.0 but the overwritten tuning #12 was still there. Back to FW 1.2, but no chance to get the original tuning back. Also we did a system reset, switched power off and on, “default” remained at #12.

When I was home again, I looked at my own Sub37, number 12 is the tuning “Chinese”.

Unfortunately, the Tuner software isn’t able to read out the Sub37s tuning tables (I’m afraid that this is a one way programming, it can’t be read out), so I couldn’t send it to my friend.
However one can load one of the 4557 Scala files which are included in this collection. However, there are 31 different chinese tunings - which one is the original?

Dear Amos, Dear Gil,

would you please

  • make the Scala files of the 16 original tunings of the Sub37 available to download on the moog site
  • write the factory tunings in the list of the Sub37 editor (not only numbers)
  • include the names of the tunings in the manual of Sub37

and at least

  • include the original tunings in an adapted Sub37 Tuner software (an adapted scales.dat ?)
  • please implement the option to save the choosen tuning with every preset :slight_smile:


    btw, on a XP notebook with USB only, the Sub37 will be recognized from the editor, but not from the Tuner Software.

Thank you,
Bernard

2

I played around with this a little this morning, just getting around to posting it now. Here’s what I found out, duplicating and adding to Bernard’s experience:

The tuning scales are not sent with the Bulk Dump:
The manual describes the bulk dump as “… containing the settings of everything in the Sub 37, including presets, MIDI, and global settings.” It does backup the selected tuning scale number, but not any of the scales themselves. (It’s stored in byte location 203811 of the bulk-dump.)

A device “Init Settings” does not restore the tuning tables:
The manual says this about Init settings: (it) “allows you to reset the system settings (everything in the MIDI menu and Global Menu) to their default value.” And later, “Init Settings will NOT erase the factory or user presets, only the MIDI and Global settings.” So, it will reset the tuning scale number to zero, but it doesn’t touch the scales themselves.

The Sub 37 does not repond to the Bulk Tuning dump request:
The manual: “The Sub 37 also supports the MIDI tuning standards for … Bulk Tuning Dump…”. But it seems to ignore the Bulk Tuning Dump Request (F0 7E 00 08 00 00 F7, also with other sysex IDs and scale numbers), and there is no visible means to initiate a bulk tuning dump from the panel. (I sent it with one instance of SysEx Librarian, while waiting for the return dump with another instance. MIDI Monitor showed the messages going out and nothing coming back. Other sysex messages were working OK in both directions. Maybe my setup was wrong?)

The MIDI standard doesn’t have a message to request a single-octave tuning dump:
There are lots of messages to send tuning tables to devices, but the MIDI standards body has (narrow-mindedly) defined only the single bulk-tuning-dump-request to get the intonation tables back out. And if your device ignores that request…

Summary:
Our scales are like a cockroach hotel: the scales can check in, but they never check out.

Without implementing additional system-exclusive message in the Sub 37, the Sub 37 Editor cannot know what tunings are in the instrument, and therefore cannot display the names of the tunings.

Additional problems:
The Phatty Tuner keeps the changes you’ve made to the scales in it’s own default settings file. Cripes! (On a Mac, PhattyTuner.app/Contents/Resources/scales.dat - it’s a regular Scala formatted text file. But you already know that, right, Bernard? :slight_smile:)

Moog (ab)uses the last character of the scale name in the single-octave tuning message as the root of the scale. There should be a separate instrument setting for the root of the scale, independent of the scale tuning itself. (We don’t need 12 scales for just intonation on 12 keys.) Some synthesizers separated the root from the tuning in the 1990’s, so this is not something new and unusual.

There doesn’t seem to be a way to stop a bulk-dump other than power-off. :slight_smile:

Bernard writes:
“- include the names of the tunings in the manual of Sub37”
I would add, “and include the definitions of those tables in the manual.”

Bernard writes:
“- please implement the option to save the choosen tuning with every preset”
I would add, “and implement a separate tuning root note, at least global”

And, Bernard, the Phatty Tuner editor has a Chinese scale in its scales.dat file – it’s probably the same scale that was in the Sub 37, so you can restore it from there, if you haven’t already.

Finally, if there was some way to get those tuning tables out of the Sub 37, we would have had a pretty document by now! :wink:

3

Thanks mikeh for your effort.

And I thought it was “You can checkout any time you like but you can never leave…” :smiley:

Thats the most interesting point here - for the actual EDITOR of the SUB37, I always wondered what’s the problem of writing that names to the list. It has been asked a long time ago.

Yes, therefore I wrote
“include the original tunings in an adapted Sub37 Tuner software (an adapted scales.dat ?)”
On windows, it’s the same file.
As a workaround for our lost entry “Chinese”, I could start the Tuner software, call the list entry #5 which is “Chinese” on the phatty, and just save it as a file.

Yes, the list entries could be completed and we could save our own tables with the right order :slight_smile:

Thanks, again!
Bernard

4

For your “lost” Chinese tuning in the Sub 37, I think the Phatty Tuner will fix that.
Select the Chinese tuning from the Tunings menu in PT, set the scale number to 12, set your root, and send it.
That should put the Chinese tuning in slot #12 on the Sub 37.
Or do I not understood the problem? :slight_smile:

5

While we’re grousing about the tuning scales… Phatty Tuner has some bugs. This is on OS X.

  • PT doesn’t discover added devices.
    The Sub 37 must be connected when PT starts up.

  • Start up the Sub 37 Editor, and PT “quits unexpectedly”.
    Do anything with the Editor, and PT quits. (Not heavily tested, maybe it’s sysex messages only)

  • The arrows on the ‘Root Note’ control are backwards.
    The up arrow moves from C down to Bb; the down arrow moves from C up to Db. (The arrows for ‘Scale #’ are OK.)

  • It allows only 13 characters in the scale name.
    The MIDI spec for the particular message has space for 16 characters.

  • Over on the Sub 37, the scale names have appended underscores.
    In PT, name a scale with “123456789ABCD” - that’s all it allows.
    Send it, and the Sub 37 display shows “123456789ABCD __” (there’s two underscores after the space).
    The name in the sysex message is “123456789ABCD \000\004”,
    so it puts a space after the name, then nul-terminates it, and sticks a binary value for the root note (4 = E).

(For the curious, the message is the Scale/Octave Tuning Dump, 2 byte format.)

6

Yes, thanks, that’s what I’ve suggested when I wrote “As a workaround for our lost entry “Chinese”, I could start the Tuner software, call the list entry #5 which is “Chinese” on the phatty, and just saved it as a file”
because the damaged Sub37 is 40km far away. :smiley:

Bernard

7

Hi fooks.. :smiley:

Well thanks to you very much…The Chinese is back on her place. Also 40 Km was no problem. With a little “Help from my friends” all went Smooth.
Thanks very very much to Mikey and Bernhard for to get this working again.

But after all…It would be nice to get the scales as a file from Moog.

Thanks guys for this awesome update…I was missing my Chinese.

Wish you both a splendid evening..

Greetings Luloop.
This makes my day…

8

Yes!

Please Gil -
what do you think of putting the original tunings on the moog site?
(beside our other suggestions?)

thanks,
Bernard

9

Thanks Mike for the report. I will keep it in the records for a case we start any new beta for Phatty Tuner.

Bernard,

This type of decisions are at a product management level, I will refer Amos to this.

10

Great. Thank you.

Whatever the managment structure at Moog looks like …
it seems that the only way to get back to the original state of the Sub37 is to send such a scala file.
In (our) case of the “Chinese” tuning we had luck, that the Little Phatty also contains this tuning and therefor the Phatty tuner too.
But what about the tunings of the Sub37 which are not included in the Phatty tuner?

cheers
Bernard

11

Hi all,

here are the original Sub 37 alternative tuning scales, in a sysex file.

http://www.moogconnect.net/downloads/sub37/Sub37_Tunings_0_to_16.syx

I agree there are some limitations to the tuning system, in terms of outputting tuning data that is already stored in the unit.

I also agree that one should be able to associate tunings with specific presets… that would be super useful.

All suggestions are noted for future improvement. Thanks for the feedback!

-Amos


(edit: Phatty Tuner is terrifically old, in software years, having been written originally for the Little Phatty and never updated. Scala is a far superior tool, it’s just difficult to set up and not very user-friendly…)

12

Thanks, Amos.

Bernard

13

Fantastic, Amos! Thank you!

14

Hi Amos,

Thanks a lot. When time, I try it.

Regards Luloop

15

Here are some files derived from the Sub37_Tunings_0_to_16.syx file that Amos provided.

The spreadsheets show how to take apart a Scale/Octave Tuning Dump message.
They also show a problem: some of the checksums do not work out.
The data seem OK; I’m thinking the checksums in the file are off.
That’s bold of me; I’d love to be proved wrong.

The scales with checksum mismatches are:
11 Mqm Husseini
12 Chinese
13 Siamese Clem
14 Tamil Vilar
15 Pelog
16 Slendro

The other troubling thing is that some of these these scales (like 5-limit Just) don’t quite match the scales in the default Phatty Tuner ‘scales.dat’ file. Close, but not exact. I’m not sure what to think about that. The Phatty had coarser tuning steps, and so the cents were quantized differently? Dunno.

So, inspect throroughly before using.

The s37scales.dat is formatted to replace the existing ‘scales.dat’ file.

Here’s some steps:

  1. Close the Phatty Tuner if it’s running.

  2. Find where the Phatty Tuner stores its files. On OS X, find the application, then ‘Show Package Contents’, then burrow into Contents / Resources.

  3. Rename the existing ‘scales.dat’ file, like ‘scales.dat-original’.

  4. Put this ‘s37scales.dat’ file in its place, renaming to ‘scales.dat’.

  5. Restart the Phatty Tuner, and you should see scales that match the Sub 37.

0 12 T Equal Temp.
1 5-Limit Just
2 Kepler
3 Pythagorean
4 Meantone
5 Arabic 1
6 Arabic 2
7 Turkish 1
8 Turkish 2
9 Byzantine
10 Greek
11 Mqm Husseini
12 Chinese
13 Siamese Clem
14 Tamil Vilar
15 Pelos
16 Slendro
17 Default
…

Yeah, all the ‘equal temps’ from 17-31 are called ‘Default’…

The Phatty Tuner accepts the file here (OS X 10.11.4). No guarantees.

If someone can tell me what I screwed up, that would be great!
Thanks!
Sub37Tunings.zip (153 KB)

16

It finally sunk in to my little head that the Sub 37 will accept the “full” tuning dumps, so I generated some.

Reversed.syx – reverse the keyboard, flip the MIDI notes end-to-end
MirrorD3.syx – mirror the keyboard, center point at D3
MirrorD4.syx – mirror the keyboard, center point at D4
Straight.syx – reset the keyboard to standard notes

Nothing Sub37 specific, but it’s very cool that it can do it!

Added for Bernard:
ReverseFs3.syx reverse the keyboard, centered at F#3
ReverseFs4.syx reverse the keyboard, centered at F#4
MirrorFs2.syx mirror the keyboard at F#2
MirrorFs3.syx mirror the keyboard at F#3
MirrorFs4.syx mirror the keyboard at F#4
FullKeys.zip (4 KB)
Edit 2016-04-27: new zip file with additional scales.

17

Mike, you are a magician, aren’t you?
That reminds me of a phrase in a beautiful song “No we’re never gonna survive unless we are a little crazy” :smiley:

It’s really great, you show what’s possible with the Sub37.
It’s should be implemented in the editor … :mrgreen:

In dedication of Joe Zawinul, I like to play reversed here and there. It surely gives some unusual lines.
I designed the keyboard interface of my modular that way, I can switch to reversed, but the mirror/center point lies at middle #F (F sharp). That means, the F sharp stays the same, in normal and in reversed scale.
This is the “middle” of an octave in the scale C. This way, the C stays also at it’s place. It’s the best to play for me.

So, if you like to … :smiley:

cheers,
Bernard

18

hey mikeh,
I’m so sorry that no one responds to your engagement.
What you did with the sub37tuning.dat was exactly, what I was asking Moog for.
And (nearly) no one downloaded your solution, no one is interested.

Btw, the sub37tuning.dat is working here on my WinXP notebook without any problems.
I think the checksum problem doesn’t really matters.
So, thanks again for making their software complete (aside from the bugs of the Phatty Tuner recognizing no USB Midi).

cheers,
Bernard

19

Hi Hi,

Well, I am very interested in Mike´s development. I also downloaded the file some day ago. But I had no time to try this really out. I had a visitor from Berlin here and when this guy is here, I have no time to experiment with Sub 37. It takes also 2 days, after he left to get my feet again back on earth.
OK
First at all I want to thanks Mike for his engagement. Just freaking around with syseX is wonderfully. Also To play with the Phatty tuner is marvelous.
I did the The s37scales.dat trick and it is working fine.
Thanks a lot..

But I really wonder Mister Mike Magician, How you generate this tuning dumps… I really wonder. To look inside a SyseX is for me…Looking inside a wormhole.

It should really be implemented in the editor…That would be great. I can Imagine a lot of scales. Would be a lot of fun.

Wish you all a fine day…
Regards Luloop

20

lol, I know such friends. They’re the ones who are most fun to be with, and the ones that are usually disliked by wives :smiley: