Hi Heiko,
Generaly it is an issue with the VCA. I’ve already got the same behavior on my Prophet 5 and Memorymoog and it was a faulty VCA chip.
But after the check with a second S37, the polish distributor had this to say : We hear the “buzz” you are talking about, but in our opinion this is rather a “feature” than the “fault”. Most probably it has something to do with the frequency of the sound from the oscillator(s) and interaction between them and the filter/multidrive.
Thanks to everyones input I can now definitely reproduce the problem. gencomprodukts, I did the same test but with higher notes. The drone sound is definitely there.
It’s harder with my 8" studio monitors (I have to turn up pretty loud to hear, but in the headphones, the drone is definitely there.
To make things easier to hear, I did the same test with the filter mostly closed (one notch above 320Hz), so the high notes that I’m playing are very quiet. After normalizing the file (originally 24 bit), the drone is very easy to hear even without headphones.
Yes, thats right - thanx to gencomprodukts. I have just check it today, because I´m reading here about this problem and I wondered, if my Sub37 has this fault too. … I´ve got my synth just 2 weeks ago, but I havn´t spend that very much time for checking all. The time I have had since delivery of it I used for having fun with the fantastic sound and features of it, mainly in bass- and effectsounds although it would be time for me to programm some leads, because I want to use the Moog in the Rockband I´m playing in. But I also have fun with electronic music and so I have played with the Moog some more electronic-band sounds. While I´having so much fun with it, I didn´t analyzed the clean sound of the higher ranges (I´m not an analyzer, I´m a musician ) and so I didn´t noticed the unwanted drone-sound.
I have no opportunity to measure that, but by comparing the audio-files of gencomprodukts with my Sub37 I´m sure that my new Moog has exactly the same fault.
I´m just a little bit in electronics, but that´s also what I thought of. If it would be the backlight of the LCD, they could programm it so, that it turns of automatically after you have turn a knob or pushed a switch and turns on again automatically, if you activate a function, that needs the LCD … I hope the guys at Moog are checking our “drone-sound-problem”, find the fault and also a way to eleminate it - because I really love this little new Moogy.
A good explanation Rufus - what are the Moog-designers thinking of?
Yes, it’s there
good luck to get clean tones with this drone sound. I remember trying to reproduce my SUB PHATTY soft leads with the S37 but never succeed. With this drone sound, it was useless…
If you’re using the S37 only for bass, it’s not a big deal because it’s a low range buzz/drone but if you want to use it for nice leads or vintage analog flutes it’s a big problem, trust me, i tried…
Bull. I’ve created plenty of nice soft mellow leads with it and made videos of this over the past several weeks. You just don’t like this synth and are spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Even if I’m wrong and you truly want to love the Sub 37 and there is a design flaw in it (which nobody noticed until you pounded it into their ears over and over again) I’m going to repeat what I said in the “other” forum:
I think you’ve obsessed SO much on this one particular “anomaly” that you never had the chance to actually enjoy the synth itself!
What exactly, in this “issue” that you perceive, has prevented you in making music? Seriously, I am honestly asking. Because if you can’t make incredible sounds and music out of this synth (like many others are already doing) then there is more going on than the synth itself… And as I mentioned before, if you don’t like the sound, get a refund, which it seems you have… but you just can’t let this go can you?
But here is the real thing, if it’s not by design, let’s just say, it’s an actual design mistake, and you caught it because you were expecting it to sound exactly like the Sub Phatty (which it’s not, it’s it’s own synth) this isn’t the first time something like this has happened… when Moog first started making synths way back when, and they first made the Minimoog, as they started production on them they realized, too late, that the engineer made a mis-calculation when designing the filter; resulting in it being overdriven way more than it was supposed to. But it was too late to fix it… and now it is arguably the most sought after filter in the synth world because of this! (see video at 6:04 History of the Minimoog Synthesizer - YouTube )
Same thing here, by design or not, I am glad the Sub 37 doesn’t sound exactly like the Sub Phatty when focusing only on that one raw Oscillator while sweeping the waveform and closely listening on a really good pair of headphones.
It is it’s own synth with it’s own character… and while you go on obsessing about this one little anomaly, even after you have returned it, I and others are actually producing music with it! Enough said.
And with that, I DO apologize for coming off so harsh towards you, but I really do think you are making much ado about nothing… but in my opinion, in my 37+ years of playing synths (and even longer as a musician in general; staring as a drummer in the late 1960s and a guitarist in 1972) this is not an issue that would prevent anyone from making incredibly beautiful sounds and music with the Sub 37. Every synth has it’s own character… some originally thought the Roland TB303 had a flaw and couldn’t accurately produce realistic bass like it was intended to, but that flaw spawned a whole new genre of music (you know, acid techno.)
And I could go on, but I guarantee you, a few years from now people will be looking for “that Sub 37 sound” that you can’t get on the Voyager, the Little Phatty or even the Sub Phatty. If I’m wrong, I’ll apologize again to you, but in the mean time, I’ll be writing, producing, recording and releasing more music with it…
Jido, it is not a question to know if i do like or don’t, and i’m not spreading fear or doubt as you claim, for fun, i’m just pointing out a phenomenom which is uncommon on proper & analog new gears (even on the vintage ones except when something is broken). That’s it.
If you want to spend your money in a synth with a drone sound on it, it’s your business but there’s people like me who don’t think the same, please, thanks to understand.
My goal is not to have fun, i just want to know if this behavior is normal (as far as i know, we are still waiting for confirmation). Why? Just because if it’s a fault i will wait for a solution and buy a second one. If not, i’ll definitely not , that’s it. I don’t like this drone sound because i can’t get a pure triangle or saw wave which is a problem for me and i beleive other people too, can u understand this?
And regarding the fact that you’re a musician, i’m a professionnal composer working on several electronic industrial music projects since the early 80’s and into contract with a major Belgian label. I’ve released many albums so frankly i’ve nothing to proove… (and we’re not here for this, it’s not the right place). To conclude, I’m not J. myself with only technical stuffs.
When I first read this post (and it’s counterpart on another board) my initial reaction was that it was being pushed way WAY too hard. The ear splitting initial example didn’t help. Just when I was convinced this was just someone taking anger and dissatisfaction to the nth degree (welcome to the internet) along comes Jon Lukas’ post. Now I get it and it’s definitely present on my unit as well.
For the record I’m ALL IN on the Sub 37. I had a Model D and I truly believe this is a superior instrument (cue traditionalist outrage). I really do love this thing; it has real character. Unfortunately it also has a flaw. It’s very true that the Minimoog’s overdriven filter gave it character and made it a classic. The TB303’s filter and layout gave it character and it became a classic. The difference is that the things that were initially perceived as flaws on these units were musical and very useful and therefore came to be embraced. If the Sub 37 becomes a classic it will be in spite of this flaw.
While everyone’s mileage will vary on how big of a deal it is to their ears, there is nothing musically pleasing about this issue. Unlike the Mini and the 303, synth manufacturers will not be rushing to replicate an omnipresent 83 HZ drone on all their new synths. It can’t be embraced, it can only be ignored. I look forward to hearing what, if anything, can be done about it. Fixing this would make a great instrument even better.
Every new synth has an issue or two. The difference with Moog is they really pay attention to these details. Look at the improvements they’ve already made! I’ve got screen and keybed issues on some of my other boards that will never get fixed because those manufacturers are already off to next year’s model. I have every confidence that if it can be fixed Moog will fix it.
So at the end of the day I went from gritting my teeth over this thread to realizing that gencomprodukts (a tenacious fellow if there ever was one) was right. If this gets fixed it will be thanks to him (and his 487 posts).
I hear it now on my Sub 37, same setup as before. It is much harder to detect on my HS80Ms though. Honestly I do not think this is going to bother me.
From a technical point of view, however, I do want to hear a reply from Moog regarding this artifact. I agree that it does not seem like the kind of sound one would expect from brand new oscillator chips. It is puzzling that it only occurs on the triangle / saw side of the fader - for me the sound fades out as you sweep from the saw to square wave.
Hey all, just posted an update on the Sub 37 mega-thread over on Gearslutz; it definitely deserves cross-posting here.
We found the source of the ~80Hz hum – which is tiny, like 50dB lower than the oscillator tone – and it can be fixed in firmware.
Clearly it is not a problem (or even audible) for a lot of players, which is great. But the folks with the golden ears were really hearing something, and we are wasting no time in correcting it. Expect pure sawtooth waves for even the most demanding listeners, coming in the next firmware update.
I do want to extend a special thanks to gencomprodukts, for pushing to get to the bottom of a subtle but real issue. Moog customers can be discerning, even demanding – but they inspire us to keep making better instruments. Thank you!
As I said, I would apologize if this is found as a definite issue, and it seems that it has. I apologize to you gencomprodukts for thinking you were just “nitpicking” over a non-issue. You truly do have some super-human ears… and patience! Though I still don’t hear it myself (maybe I need better headphones now) I don’t think it will affect me either way, but if Moog is making a fix for this and it does wind up improving anything significantly, then that can only be a good thing for everyone… thanks to you gencomprodukts.
Up early in the UK listening to the results of the Scottish Referendum … Wanted to add my thanks to gencomprodukts for pointing out this issue. For me I can’t actually hear it as clearly and it is not spoiling my enjoyment of the fabulous Sub37 but I know it is there from the FFTs I ran on gencomprodukts and my samples and would prefer it gone.
Also pleased to see that Amos has indeed ‘popped his head in’ and Moog are on the case
thanx for that! That is the thing, why it´s a fault and not a feature of the new VCO-design!
@jido-genshi: I had two Minimoogs and a Prodigy several years ago. Now as I´m making music again and my love for “the Moog-Sound” and the Moog Synthesizers newly awakened, I have bought the Sub37 - BUT NOT to have a 100%-copy of one of my old moogs!!! I really know, that this is impossible. Try to compare two Minis … they didn´t sound identical. So how should a different designed Synth sound like the old ones?
BUT I´ve decide to buy a Sub 37, to recreate the typical classical Moog-Sounds as near as it is possible with the Sub37, beneath creating many new sounds, which are not possible to create with the Model D or the Prodigy. Some typical clean leadsounds of the old Moogs, created with saw and triangle are my favorites. And by recreating these sounds I love so much, the drone/issue is definetly present and doesn´t let you have this typical brilliant clean Moog Leadsounds, because this issue is not musical! And by the way, I have just normal Sennheiser headphones - 30 years old and at the time I bought them not expensive.
I really love the Sub 37, that´s a fact (look at the photo below) and I really don´t want to give it away anymore. But knowing that I can´t have these typical Moog-leads with a clean (undroned) sound I like so much, makes me a little bit sad. And so I hope, that Moog can fix this issue, hopefully with a firmware-update as Amos mentioned, so that I have not to send my Baby back for servicing.
Thanx to all, especially to gencomprodukts … but also to Moog Music, which had designed a really nice synth - for me the best since the Moog Voyager … and in a few days/weeks it will be absolutely perfect, I´m sure!
Thank you so much for recognizing my contribution and effort!
It was painfull and a particularly tough fight! Anyway, i’m glad that Moog engineers are able to fix the issue and i will buy a second unit (I had to return my unit and i feel so bad now… i have to wait xx weeks to get another one, it’s still out of stock in France )
I always have to put any buzz down to my house electric wiring. But it’s good to see that this issue can be fixed by firmware - and example of great engineering from moog to have that level of control.
Hi. I have my Sub 37 only for 7 days.
Firmware 1.0.3
I CAN HEAR THAT BUZZ (HUM) SOUND. As I read the forgoing topics, it seems to be a common problem for Moog Sub 37 units.
I tried to make a simple sine wave like sound using the triangle waveform and I used the following setttings:
OCS 1 - 2’ triangle max volume on mixer section
OSC 2 - 2’ triangle max volume on mixer section
Sub osc - 0
Noise - 0
Feedbck - 0
and the HUM appeared. I did’t noticed this problem before, when I was surfing through the factory presets.
And yes, the hum is present between the triangle and square waveforms. (12 o’clock position on the wave shape button).
I tried the same settings on a Moog SubPhatty and the hum is not present. The sound of the Sub Phatty is much clearer.
I registered my Moog on Moogmusic and described the problem yesterday (friday the 26 th of September). No answer until now. I hope I will get one monday.
Sadly that hum is bothering me, and I am disappointed becouse I was waiting for this synth so much. However I don’t want to send it back, I would keep it and I will filter the hum out of my recordings using an EQ.
I hope that Moog will correct this issue with the next firmware update. … and I hope the Moog will include a feature that shows the exact bpm rate on the LCD screen, as it was on the Little Phatty.
I have just check it today, because I´m reading here about this problem and I wondered, if my Sub37 has this fault too. … I´ve got my synth just 2 weeks ago, but I havn´t spend that very much time for checking all. The time I have had since delivery of it I used for having fun with the fantastic sound and features of it, mainly in bass- and effectsounds although it would be time for me to programm some leads, because I want to use the Moog in the Rockband I´m playing in. But I also have fun with electronic music and so I have played with the Moog some more electronic-band sounds. 
While I´having so much fun with it, I didn´t analyzed the clean sound of the higher ranges (I´m not an analyzer, I´m a musician 
) and so I didn´t noticed the unwanted drone-sound.
