Midi feedback loop - ableton live 8

The Moog Forum Little Phatty & Slim Phatty Forum
1

Hi,

I have just got a slim phatty, which is my first hardware synth (everything else is soft synth) and i’m loving it, so easy to program and perfect for nasty dnb basslines. But I’m having some issues. I have been in touch with Moog support and they have been very good, but thought it is worth sharing it on the forum, as someone else may have already had this issue and know how to resolve it.

I must mention first, I am new to midi setups as I normally do everything in soft synths, so I may have just done something stupid, if so bare with me, new to all of this.

My original setup that I was having problems with was as follows:

Macbook connected to a Saffire 6 USB Audio Interface (hooked up directly into a USB port on Macbook, not sharing). I had the midi out for the Saffire to midi in on Phatty, and midi out on phatty to midi in on Saffire. I use a Novation SL25 keyboard connected via USB for mid control.

Ableton Setup: Midi track set to the Saffire; Audio track set up to channel 1 coming in. In preferences output setup as: Saffire Track & Sync input: Saffire Track

My main problem is setup- as above, a manual filter cutoff sweep just sounds terrible, the lights on the knobs dont follow right, and it generally just goes weird on me. So I tried midi of USB, same problem. I tried changing midi channels, multiple factory restores, reloading OS and finally loading the latest beta OS, still no joy.

Luckily the helpful guy at Moog support said to try only using one midi cable (No midi in), and it works :slight_smile: but this means that I cannot record realtime midi data from live tweaks from my phatty :frowning: which I would like to do, as I can then tweak and mess up the envelopes via ableton live. So if anyone has any ideas on this, it would be great.

My more minor issue, is that when I use the calibration preset, the LFO plays up a bit (all other presets are good). Say i set it to triangle wave, and to the filter. I set the filter cutoff at say 50%, bring the speed up of the LFO (so it would be a speed you could clearly hear). I then try to engage the LFO by using the mod wheel on the keyboard, nothing, so then I try and go into the other mode (press the button) and increase the modulation by turning the knob nothing. Basically I have to mess about a bit, keep increasing and then the and changing modes, then it will suddenly kick in. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I wonder if it is related to my midi issues I have been having.

Many thanks,

Keith

2

Well, I dunno if this can help, but try to create the midi track in ableton like this:

1 - Midi Channel
2 - Import (External Instrument)
3 - Set it up straight to SP (in the midi output) / don’t send the midi to the soundcard
4 - Set gain to -0dbs

Let me know if it helped :slight_smile:

Pedro Goya

3

Keef, couple of things.

  1. go ahead and use both MIDI cables, just turn off “Local Control” on the MIDI SETUP menu of the Phatty. Local Control OFF is exactly for the situation where you have both MIDI in/out going through your computer. A feedback loop is prevented by “disconnecting” the knobs from the sound engine (this is what LOCAL CNTRL: OFF does), so the knobs will just send MIDI (which you can record and play back) and the Phatty is only listening to MIDI from your computer. That way you don’t have the problem of the filter for example changing directly due to your moving the knob, then getting the same instructions via MIDI half a tick later, which is what causes it to act wonky. Hope that makes sense.

  2. The issue with the calibration preset is simple I think - for purposes of calibration, the mod AMOUNT parameter (the normal one you get when you just press the Amount button once) is set to zero. In this case you get no modulation no matter what your actual Mod Wheel setting is… because the Amount sets what the maximum modulation will be when the mod wheel is all the way up. If the max amount is zero, well… 100% of zero is zero :slight_smile:.
    So if you are faffing about with the calibration preset just remember to set the normal Amount above zero, then your mod wheel on your controller should work as normal. Also, you can save a tweaked copy of the CA preset to a different location (can’t save over the CA slot but can choose Save and then select a new patch number to save over)… if you do this, just set Amount to 100% or whatever you like before saving… then the saved copy will be all sorted.

Cheers,

Amos

4

Thanks for the advice!!

Pedro, did not sort the issue out, but using the “external instrument” option is better than using to tracks, great tip!!

Amos, the “Local Control” advice worked :smiley: my phatty decided to throw a wobbler and not respond to me the next few times I switched it on at first, but then a few factory restores later, followed by your advice and it’s working!!! Can also do all my crazy modulation in ableton too!! P.S. I had to read your option 1 advice couple of times, then I was like, yeah that makes sense. So thanks for explaining something so well, which can be difficult on the net.

Also copied the calibration setup onto a different location, and all seems good so far!! not sure if I got a LFO gremlin still lurking around, but will see with time.

So once again, thanks for your help (at one point I thought it was me hearing weird with the filter, lol).

P.S. Gotta say I am well impressed with this unit, until I heard one in the shop (demo’d by another DNB fan, who has one himself), I had totally dismissed all analog hardware, especially moog, as I thought they only suited prog rock 70’s solo leads (not that there is anything wrong with that, but just not my thing). But even though I am spoilt with the mad modulation possibilities in my softsynths, and the lack of poly etc on this phatty, I have found sound far it does not matter, as this can sound soooo dark and nasty, especially with 2 poles and a bit of overdrive :smiling_imp: and also using the basics will teach me more about sounds design anyway, which I need !!

5

back to basics is a great way to learn sound design… start with simple building blocks, learn what they do, then in your head you can combine the simple bits into more complex sound design schemes. I guess it’s like learning anything, in that way :slight_smile:

Remember that when Local Control is off, the Phatty won’t respond to your knob turnings and program changes UNLESS its outgoing MIDI is being piped back into the Phatty (via your computer/DAW, typically). I wonder if this relates to the problems you were having at first.

In any case, sounds like you’ve got it sorted… good stuff! Enjoy that dark, dirty analog power… :mrgreen:

there’s a preset I wrote a while back for the LP Stage Edition, or Stage II maybe, called INTERCEPTOR… check it out, it’s got a great dark DnB vibe I think… was inspired by an old Eat Static tune…
I just posted a huge pile of factory presets for folks to paw through; Slim users especially might enjoy some of the “back catalogue” of Phatty sounds from previous editions:

http://seamslikereality.com/moog/Phatty_Sounds.zip

Cheers!

_Amos

6

Funny you mention the Interceptor preset, as i’m pretty sure that this is one of the ones that sold it to me in the shop, and thinking about it, it was on a little phatty, not the slim phatty. Will give it a go!!

Yeah I pretty always have the phatty going through the DAW, so will have been the problem all along.

Cheers

7

Ohhh no I have more gremlins!! Sorry I need hopefully one last bit of help.

For some reason when I have “LOCAL CNTRL” OFF, then the osc 1 octave switch will not work, it gets stuck.

I have downloaded midi monitor, when I use my midi keyboard messages are coming from port 1,note on/note off message, channel 1. When I play with the slim phatty they come from saffire usb audio interface, control message, channel 1, data produced from clicking on octave 1 is brightness 16/32/48/64.

Does that help.

8

This is a bug! Actually it’s just a typo in the most recent firmware code… I just found and fixed it. My apologies, I’ll post an update later today.

Cheers,

Amos

9

i have the same problem but not with ableton.
just when i put the LP II on local off.
Do you have a solution?
thanks