If you could only have one: 104m delay or 108m cluster flux?

The Moog Forum Moogerfooger Forum
1

I’ve got room for one more purchase for the year so I’m considering either of these two. I’m leaning a bit more towards the cluster flux as I’m hoping it’d be a superior option to use on my Juno 60 in place of its overbearing unadjustable chorus that I’ve been tiring of a bit lately. I want something clearer/nicer with less hiss.

On the other hand, I own no analog delays and currently just rely on Echo Boy & Waves H-Delay plugins. However, my hesitation there is I do like to be able to adjust the delay bandwidth to fit in the mix whereas you can’t do that with analog delays.

To those who have these units, what do you think?

2

Hi nms,

I have both and wouldn’t want to part with either but…some considerations:

How important is stereo chorusing? If you’re wanting chorus because of the
stereo field, the 108M is your best choice. The stereo is truly magnificent.

If you tend to go from chorus into another Mono In device, then I’d go with
the 104M. You’ll get both killer delay and chorus.

Obviously, both pedals have much more to offer (they’re MOOGs) but I think
this is the tipping issue, IF chorus is your primary goal.

If delay “bandwidth” is important, it’s very easy to put an EQ in the Insert
of the Feedback Loop of either device.

3

104m

But I only have the 104m (of the two choices listed). I couldn’t see the point of the 108m.

4

108m sounds like the best choice in your case. If you’re looking to sweeten up the sound of another keyboard, you really can’t go wrong there.

The 104m is better if your main aim is to FSU. It didn’t sound like that’s what you’re after so I’m recommending the 108m. Also, the delay works more noticeably with a plucked sound like a guitar (or a synth with plucked attributes).

I have both, and enjoy both.

Good luck with your purchase, let us know what you end up choosing.

Stephen




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5

That really is a good point, and since I’ve primarily been using my 104 with guitar, I seem to fit the bill for that preference.

6

108M has a feature under the hood where you can increase the delay time into echo territory, but at the expense of audio grit.

If you like chorus, the 104M isn’t ideal because its shortest delay is 40ms. Chorus is in the 10-30ms range.

7

108M would be my choice.

I have a 104z, but I almost always use the 108M - be it for chorus, flange, stereo spread, or just some cutting tone modifications. The 104M is more of an effect, the 108m is more of a tone tool with some cool effects.

(Save up and get both, but get the ClusterFlux first.)

8

Yeah it’s settled.. the 108m is the best fit for me. I’ll try the delay some other time.

I just picked up a UBK Clariphonic as well, so between that and the 108m my synths will be in just the territory I want them to be.

9

Sounds like you already made up your mind : ) and I did not get a chance to chime in but just to give you some additional reinforcement; I have both and have to recommend the ClusterFlux. Here’s why (and I may be repeating what was said above but…)

You can get a good analog delay for $150 (MXR for instance) and while the 104M has a ton of interesting features, the Time based modulation is something that is a bit difficult to come to grips with. It has it’s musical application for sure but I think it’s more limited (because the affect on pitch is VERY pronounced across 3/4s of the potentiometer) than what the ClusterFlux can do.

They have full featured, midi sync-able LFOs in common and deal with adjusting the time in similar ways, but having the shorter gang of BBDs to deal with, the effect comes across as being more musical and subtle for the flange/choruses and there is much more headroom between the subtle side of the traditional chorus effect, and the repeats of infinite +/- that swells into background noise. Delays that get on that run-away train end up creating a wall of sound around which no other sound will pass.

Really hard to get my point across, but I think it can be best said that the ClusterFlux is unique. Get by with an inexpensive delay for now, or software based VST/plug-ins or whatever; you won’t find anything like the ClusterFlux in my opinion.

10

Cluster Flux, hands down. Seems like it has a ton of mod options that make it so much more than just a chorus. Moog’s delay seems prety standard for an analog delay, making its price tag a bit on the ridiculous side.

11

Here’s a very short list of those “pretty standard” features:

The MF-104m’s Delay Time can be set manually, or with a Control Voltage,
or an Expression Pedal, or with the footswitch Tap Tempo, or with two
different types of MIDI Tap Tempo, or with CC# 12/44 with 14-bit precision,
or with PitchBend with 8 different PitchBend amounts, or with a MIDI Note
number (two types - Relative or Absolute).

It has 7 different LFO Shapes for Delay Time Modulation. The LFO Shapes
can be chosen manually, or with CC# 102.

LFO Rate can be controlled manually, or with a Control Voltage, or with an
Expression Pedal, or with the footswitch Tap Tempo, or with two different
types of MIDI Tap Tempo, or your choice of 22 different sub-divisions of an
external MIDI Clock, or with CC# 15/47 with 14-bit precision.

LFO Amount can be controlled manually, or with a Control Voltage, or an
Expression Pedal, or with a ModWheel, or CC# 16/48 with 14-bit precision.

The LFO’s Phase can be reset, at any time, via CC# 105, or MIDI Note Ons.

The Wet/Dry Mix of the Delay can be controlled manually, or with a Control
Voltage, or an Expression Pedal, or with CC# 14/46 with 14-bit precision.

There is both manual and MIDI control of Bypass.

Bypass has option of a Spillover Mode that can be selected either manually
or via MIDI CC# 110. You can jump in/out of Spillover at will, allowing you
to play along with the Spillover and add to it whenever you like.

The Delay Time can be pushed way past its “legal” limits via Tap Tempo
or x2, x4, or x8 using the Delay Time Multiplier via CC# 89.

The Low Pass Filter values for Short/Long Delay Times can be swapped
via CC# 85.

There is a musically useful Send/Return Delay Feedback jack.

There is a separate Delay Only jack as well as the standard Mix Out.

The MF-104m has a wide range, adjustable Input Gain that works on
Guitar, Mic, all the way up to Line Level, and distorts very musically.

I’m sure there must be dozens of true Analog Delays that have the
above “standard features” but, at the moment I can’t remember which
ones they are. :question:

Kenneth, can you help me out and remind me of three or four true
analog delays that have at least most of these “standard” features?

12

Nice write up dude, I had no idea it was that feature-worthy.

Stephen




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13

Oops, guess I should have done my homework on that one. :blush: