I’m thinking about buying an old discreet minimoog (#1047), but I have to travel into another town to look at it. It is supposed to be completely overhauled and in very good condition. I use to have a voyager, but now I’m regretting I sold it. However, I prefer the more aggressive sound of the original model D - so I’m thinking about getting one of those instead. The voyager is a bit too mellow for my taste, being a huge fan of the ELP-sound.
Can anyone tell me, who’ve had experience with these oldest minimoogs, what kind of stability they have (warm-up, stability in pitch during playing, how often they need tuning/repair to keep them up and running) and how expensive it would be to keeping it in a good condition. And most importantly, how big sonical difference are we talking about here compared to a voyager - or newer more stable minimoogs for that matter?
It’s been a long time since I fiddled with a real minimoog, and I have no experience with those old so-called drifty/discreet models. From what I understand the filter also sound better on the old ones, because of the paired filters - how much difference are we talking about here?
Basically the bigger, badder, snappyer, boomyer and sparklyer the sound is the happier I am.
The synth would be used to band practices and gigs.
(Argh, beware those that think of departing with your beloved Voyagers - you may come to regret it deeply later on. - And it’s very difficult to get a good price for a used voyager - so you will loose a lot of money selling it compared to what you paid for it in the first place…)
Thanks!
PS: I know it’s difficult to describe and compare sounds, but I can mention that I’m no big fan of minimoog VSTs, I think they sound flat and lifeless compared to the real thing…
I can’t help with the Model D because I don’t own one. I believe MC and some other Moogers have them so i’m sure they will be along to help soon.
I wanted to comment about the Voyager. I believe everyone is in agreement that although the Voyager is a great synth, it doesn’t sound exactly like a Model D so if the sound of a Model D is what you’re after you should buy one.
What baffles me is that I’ve heard several people complain how they sold off their Model D or Prophet 5, etc. when they were getting a lot less than they paid for it just to have the cost go up astronomically 10 years later.
It seems that people would understand the value of keeping the Voyager especially when you only get 50% of what you paid if you sell it right now. The Voyager is the only semi-modular synth designed by Bob Moog himself. It is a new synth that combines classic analog with modern technology. These synths are going to be worth a lot more than $1,700 in the future so why not keep it?
I’m not trying to bash anyone becuase life happens. It just doesn’t seem fiscally intelligent to sell a Voyager until they are vintage too.
Karn!!
Buy it!!!
My Mini is not that old… so I can’t directly address the one you’re interested in… but, man… a fully discrete Mini… delightful!
I have not had to repair mine yet, so I can’t address that, either… but I can say that tuning instability is not a big deal. My 2nd oscillator drifts… I think more than most… but I seriously don’t care. I have a tiny little Korg guitar tuner hooked up to the low-output jack. After a couple of hours, I check and retune… it takes only a moment with a digital tuner.
It is “flaws” like the tuning that give the Minimoog that desireable character… oscillators that stay perfectly in tune do not sound like synthesizers from the 70s… I’m sure your Voyager was GREAT as far as tuning goes, but 1970s analog was messy, and that messiness gave it the sound that I certainly desire and look for… and it sounds like you do, too.
A Mini D will not really replace your Voyager… they’re really very different… but I, as a hardcore early analog fan, would encourage you to buy an old Mini if you have the chance! Especially if you crave the ELP sound!
It’s difficult to conjecture what kind of experience you may have with an old Model D these days. I know of a few who have no (or very few) stability issues, but it seems like regular maintenance is the norm and required to keep 35 year old electronics happy. And prices for mainenance will vary, of course.
I don’t want to open worm cans here, but if I took a blind listening test to compare the Voyager with the Model D, I have little doubt that I would not be able to distinguish the two (but maybe I would be in the minority on this). But you mention that you prefer the “aggressive” Model D sound, so that should make your decision easier.
I own #1053, with 3046-based oscillator board. When it arrived, the thing would not stay in tune. There are all kinds of little things in a Minimoog that throw it out of tune. I did a lot of hot-rodding to improve the tuning stability without changing the timbre of the VCOs. Now it gets through a recording or a four-hour gig with no touch-up on tuning at all.
My Voyager can cop any sound I can make on that Mini, so if you want a more agressive sound you might not find it on an early Mini. Personally I prefer the Voyager because I can get a bigger palette of sounds that a Mini wouldn’t dream of.
Because the early Mini’s had matched transistor pairs all throughout the ladder filter, they sound consistent from unit to unit, even with different VCO boards. Later ones have a noticeably different sound which varied from unit to unit, even with the same VCO board. I don’t have a preference over which is better, but I do hear a difference in resonant qualities. So take that for what it’s worth.
In the end, what matters is how it sounds to your ears, which is good that you’re going to audition the unit itself. Allow twenty minutes warmup before you make a judgement on tuning, and after that check its tunng drift over a half hour. The discrete VCO boards are known to be drifty, and this may be an issue if you plan to gig with it. The discrete boards are also reputed to be closer in timbre to the original 900 oscillators in the modular, thus closer to the ELP sound.
I agree with the others to go and buy the miniD. I like The Source and miniD but I have come to luv the features of the Voyager. Having said that I know how important it is to have the “right Moog” for your own desires and needs, ie. get what you want 'cause you’ll feel that somehow you settled if don’t. i wish you luck in your purchase it sounds like a great old Moog! and I am sure you won’t regret your purchase.
Museslave, I appreciate your enthusiasm!
However, when I try it out.. Are there certain things I should look out for? I mean, I read that the sound quality of the miniDs can vary greatly, but this shoudn’t be an issue with the early models - because of the paired filter ladders - right?
Is there other issues I should look for, so that I don’t get a “bad” unit - or whatever..
Some of you say that you wouldn’t be able to tell apart a discreet modelD and a Voyager in a blind test. Is that really true, or are you being very diplomatic here..? I realize when people pay big bucks for a one-note-synth, they want it to be as good as possible.. I don’t want to turn this into yet another miniD vs. Voyager thread, but I thought there was a fairly big difference here?
I was under the impression that the old minimoogs have a lot more frequency output, both in the lower end (giving a bigger and more bassy sound) and more hifreq output (giving it a (even) more crisper and detailed sound). The first thing I noticed when I playing my voyager was that it had a very creamy and smooth sound, but didn’t do those larger-than-life sounds quite the same as I had expected.
The osc. drifting isn’t really the biggest deal for me (as this can be “sort-of” replicated on the voyager), but it is the general bigger sound with more freq output in the extreme ranges of the sound spectrum.
Sure I got very aggressive sounds out of the voyager, but I’m thinking both full/thick sound as a well as aggressive here.
For instance, making a basic 3osc saw wave patch on the voyager didn’t give me quite the Wakeman/Emerson I wanted. What is the main ingredient that’s missing? Drifty oscs, or less freq. output?
Am I completey wrong here or what?
Thanks for reading!
(I’m asking may questions here, but this miniD is in another town FAR away from I live, and it is a costly trip.. So it’s preferable to know if this is actually something that I want, before making the trip.
I just read through all the older modelD posts at this forum, and I pretty much got my answers there. I still have to think this through though, I guess a 35 year old synth’s gonna not be the easiest thing to gig and practice with.
Thanks for all the replies!
I used to spend a lot of time being an analog purist outsider… looking for anything that sounded different from a Minimoog because I felt that it was merely a fad. After acquiring one, I had to surrender. It is simply the best sounding analog synthesizer I have ever heard, or used. If mine were stolen, I might even consider selling my Korg PS-3100 to replace it… or any of my synths… or most of them, if need be.
I have only played my Minimoog as far as Minimoogs go. However, I completely recognize other Minimoogs now. I don’t know to what degree they vary… I suspect the variance between Minimoogs of similar design varies only a little. I have an early Mini without the oscillator upgrade, and I LOVE it. I have heard many state that the post-upgrade Minis sound “different,” but I don’t know to what degree. I love the pre-upgrade sound… it’s very messy and is plainly recognizeable in 1970s recordings.
I don’t know that any fully-functioning Mini is bad… but I would make sure that the keyboard CV is tracking correctly… I’ve heard a lot of people complain about that, and I have two notes that are “squirrely,” and it’s not very fun. I’d just say test all functions to make sure they are working, let it warm up and verify that the tuning doesn’t drift unreasonably, and make sure it has original knobs, nameplate, etc. if that sort of thing interests you!
I think it’s possible to make a Voyager sound like a Mini, and perhaps in some cases a Mini sound like a Voyager, but I would be very surprised indeed if in a general sense these two synths were identical. It largely depends on what sounds the player chooses and how they implement them, as well as many other factors… a VERY well maintained and completely updated Mini might sound very much like a Voyager. However, it’s my opinion that an early Mini does not sound like a Voyager, and a Voyager might have trouble sounding like an old Mini… primarily because of the instability and rough nature of the early Minis. Not saying either is BETTER, just saying that they are different! Depends on what you’re looking for!
I can’t necessarily comment on this, as I don’t have the technology to test! However, I can say that from my own comparisons, my Mini is very “warm” and I would daresay “creamy.” It isn’t necessarily “smooth,” it’s more like… I don’t know… saturated fat. : ) It is definitely not “clean.” It’s messy. “Buzzy,” not in the sense that there is a buzz, but in an abstract sense. : ) It’s all very subjective and difficult to quantify… but its apparent when you hear it! The bass frequencies my Mini generates are suspiciously intense, even compared to my dotcom modular, or any other synth I have.
I’m honestly not sure. My Mini does not seem capable of making a truly sharp sort of sound… well, I mean, it is… but not as piercing and intensely sharp as synths without the Moog filter. For me, it seems the Moog filter makes EVERYTHING warm… it’s like MSG, it makes everything taste good. Compared to say, a Korg MS-20… which can make very sharp, intense grating sounds even without the High Pass invoked. It’s hard to escape the butter in the Mini. : ) I’m afraid I don’t know exactly what you mean by the Wakeman/Emerson sound your Voyager was lacking… but I’m guessing it had to do with the messy nature of discrete as compared to the very stable nature of post-discrete.
Thanks Museslave! That was really a hugely helpful answer.
As I stated, the most important thing for me is that have the biggest and punchy-est sound possible, and it does seem that a discreet minimoog is the way to go.
I was able to get all those classic ELP sounds on my Voyager (except for some of the modular sounds obviously), but I felt that the sound was a bit too midrangy, lacking both the clarity and bass/boomyness of the modelD. I saw someone write that listening to the Voyager is like listening to the miniD with wool in one’s ears. Now that may seem a bit offensive to a lot of people here, but that is kind of the feeling I also was left with. Of course, the Voyager sounded great to me, but I was missing “something”. I’m going check out this modelD, and I will certainly let it be known if/when I buy it.
Though, I must say I really, really regret selling my Voyager. I did it at a low point in my life from a musical standpoint. I thought I was finished with playing in bands, and was determined to focus at school and studies instead, and now 10 months later I realized I acted way too quick…
To the trained eye, one can tell that the waves of the original Minimoog has a higher harmonic content than the Voyager when the filter is open all the way up. See how the Voyager’s square waves look more “rounded”? This implies that the original Mini’s filter had a higher maximum cutoff frequency than the Voyager’s. Its only slight, I don’t know if your ears could even detect this.
As for lacking low end and sounding “boomy”, well thats all crazy talk.
My Voyager can make your bowls release and with the twist of a knob pop your eardrums with screaming leads
Look again at the ramp waveform. The rising edge, which is high frequency content, is nearly the same slope on both machines. The Voyager pulse wave is more rounded by design of the VCO, not the VCF. If the Voyager VCF cutoff did not open as high as the Minimoog, you’d see it in the ramp waveform.
It’s a myth that the Voyager VCF is not as bright as the Minimoog VCF. The front panel cutoff control doesn’t extend all the way, but there are other ways to open the filter higher.
I have never seen that thread! It’s VERY interesting!
Of course, it’s really just about the oscillators… which is still very valuable… but I’d love to see similar images showing the effects of the two filters on the various waveforms. That would be quite a lot of images, but it would definitely portray the two systems as a whole, and the differences between the two.
I would say the percentage of time I spend playing my Mini with the filter all the way open is… well, small. : )
That’s interesting. I was pretty sure that the Voyager did sound more midrangy than the modelD, but I’ve never owned a modelD for careful comparisons. I guess I was wrong then.. Oh well..
Anyway, the voyager DOES sound great. It does a heck of a lot more than the original D. I was able to get all those old Genesis ARP leads, and also pretty decent Pat Metheny sounds and a lot more. That’s pretty cool I must say!
The Voyager definately has bass, but it doesn’t go quite as deep, and is more controlled and tight. That’s how I remember it anyway.
OK, sorry for another Voyager vs. minimoogD thread.
Just couldn’t resist..
