Moog Music Forum

when I read the manual to my Casio VL1-tone it says that this instrument can achieve 80 million different sounds. This is because each sound is created by a line of numbers and totally 80 million numbers can be set.
Sounds enough, if you spend just one second per sound you need 926 days to discover the whole sound capacity (if I calculated it correctly).
How many sounds I could create with the Mini Moog Voyager?

If it takes a yard and a half of water to make a nightgown for a goldfish, how long does it take a one legged cockroach to kick a hole in a dill pickle?

(A moog can make and infinite number of sounds because the controls are not digitised. But most sounds would be indistinguishable form the next as the change is so small. Like adding a drop of red to 10 gallons of white. Each drop will make a change, but you couldn't percieve it.)

good one Maybe try a calculator over here http://www.csgnetwork.com/ or the Time converter http://www.csgnetwork.com/timemath.html

Cheers

Just Me wrote:(A moog can make and infinite number of sounds because the controls are not digitised.

I think the controls have to be digitized for patch storage, run through ADCs to be saved then DACs to send the signals along their various paths.

Good pictures

Casio VL1 is a toy and I don´t consider it producing any sound at all - more like 80 million different noises.

The analog part of the Voyager has of course no steps. But if there are 65 000 something (don't remember exactly) steps that shows up per controller (at least at the Voyager Edit program) and the Voyager has xx number of parameters, just use the calculator (Casio VL1 has one built in, so it can be used for something) and you'll find the answer. You will get a number with a ton of zeros behind. Compare that to the music scale that has just 12 steps, but unlimted of melodies can be made. And if it is just the controllers that shows these steps, then it is infinite with number of sounds.

But that is all theory. Basically you have some few waveforms that can produce some hundreds of sounds that are unique, and some hundreds of variations to these unique timbres. Then the rest of all sounds are very close to other sounds - and if you listen a second to every sound that possible can be made you'll need an eternity or two for that project

many thanks for the replies on my question. Although it looks very silly it has some serious content. Of course all the possible permutations may lead to a large number of possible sounds. But even if it takes more than a human life time to discover all of them the number is not infinite. And with an exponential display a cheap scientific calculator can show it easily.
The easy part is the digital section. Here all permutations leads to a number (similar to the casio). But with the analog part it is difficult and may be separated into a physiological part and a quantum mechanical part. The physiological part is determinated by the ability of the ear to distinguish different sounds. E.g. a ramp up sawtooth sounds very similar to a ramp down sawtooth, although on a scope these two sounds obviously different.
The quantum mechanical part is determined by the steps the electronic components can create - far more than the resolution of a human ear can detect and also far more than a human hand can apply onto the potentiometers. However a number should be possible to derive.

Why I'm asking such things? Maybe because I'm mad and I would like to know as much as possible about my beloved Voyager. And I'm watching soaps and tele novelas too to understand my wife a little better...

The flaw in multiplying out all possible combinations of parameters is that many combinations do not result in unique sounds. If the amount of filter env is zero, then the filter ADSR values are all irrelevant but the calculator would say that there are so many billion sounds within just those parameter possibilities. And how unique is a sound where the release is .25 seconds longer than another sound? No human being would call the difference a different sound. Human perception is much more complex than comparing bytes. Humans only care about the number of unique sounds which they like, and that is the only reason to buy a synthesizer. I'm betting there are less than 3 sounds I would like on a Casio, compared to hundreds on a Moog - and no, I don't care how many exactly.

Cheers,
B

thanks a lot for the replies so far. Now I'm on the way to munich to grab my second Voyager (thanks Martin from Lindberg and thanks Stefan from EMC). How many sounds two Voyagers can produce? And how old is the captain? Sorry, not a real serious question...

But again to my initial approach. I'm now a little bit confused. The Voyager is an analog synthesizer. But does the digitizing (tweaking knobs shown related numbers in the display) apply any limitation in creating a sound? Is there a kind of pixeling effect to consider?
I'm not complaining, it is just a matter of curiosity.

Niko wrote:Is there a kind of pixeling effect to consider? I'm not complaining, it is just a matter of curiosity.

With very high resonance you can hear the stepping of the filter pot at 2 or 3 'o clock.

psicolor wrote:

Niko wrote:Is there a kind of pixeling effect to consider? I'm not complaining, it is just a matter of curiosity.

With very high resonance you can hear the stepping of the filter pot at 2 or 3 'o clock.

two or three o'clock in the morning ?
how many neurons has somebody firing at once while making up topic questions like this ( at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning probably ) ?

sunny pedaal wrote:

psicolor wrote: two or three o'clock in the morning ?
how many neurons has somebody firing at once while making up topic questions like this ( at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning probably ) ?

Are you kidding? Sorry, my English is so bad.....
Turn up your voyager's resonance (until self oscillation) and rotate the cutoff frequency knob so that it points to 2 or 3 o' clock (in the afternoon of cause ). Now turn the cutoff knob very slowly and you will hear the stepping

Consider

14 bit resolution per knob = 16384

The voyager has 24 of these knobs so a factorial of 24 to 16384 will give us a starting number

Then you need factorial of the rotary switches and their positions (including the PGM sources/destinations)

Then you need to factor in the variations offered by the touchpad X/Y/Z

The touchpad is pure analog not discrete.

Methinks the answer is damn near infinity

I don't have the tools for doing factorials, anybody want to take this on?

psicolor wrote:

sunny pedaal wrote:

psicolor wrote:

Are you kidding?

yes i am

Alright analog prophet, the VL-tone ain't a toy. Respect our instruments. Let's not discriminate. haha

Disgustine wrote:Alright analog prophet, the VL-tone ain't a toy. Respect our instruments. Let's not discriminate. haha

if none of your instruments are toys, why do you play with them ?