Moog Music Forum

Have any bassists tried using the Sonuus B2M to control the T-3?

I have one coming in about a week.

I was thinking of doing that exect thing. Let us know how it works out when you receive the B2M.
Thanks.

I've used the G2M with the Voyager and it's fun but tracking is a bit weird. It definitely tracks better --i.e. faster-- above the 12th fret.

Set the pitch bend for 2 semitones if you want smooth-sounding bends or set it for an octave for stair-stepped bending, up and down. It can add a lot of notes!!!

When you run the audio output at the same time the latency gets to be an issue. I suppose you could set a digital delay to match the average tracking speed and maybe things would sync better. I doubt this little box is keeping the Axon folks awake at night, but for $100 the ability to play Voyager patches via MIDI with an electric guitar is pretty damned kewl.

I'm looking to use slower attack sounds, play some long tones. I'm not expecting it to follow any rapid, whacky bass guitar lines.

I'd like to try it along with my Steinberger NXT EUB when I'm bowing long notes.

Played with the B2M today.

So far... a C-.

I tried it with a Yamaha BB5000, Steinberger NXT EUB and a Chapman Stick (bass side).

It skips around a lot. Mixes up the octave. Fast playing is not going to work.

Having said that, a slow attack sound on the T-3 (even tried a GR-20 guitar synth) will work most of the time. Was able to get it to follow my electric upright with pitch bending/sliding pretty well (+/- 2 steps). Worked okay when I bowed long notes.

I have a GK-3 on the Melody side of my Stick so I am familiar with this pitch-to-MIDI stuff. The Sonuus B2M does NOT work anywhere as well as the Roland GK-3/GR-20. But it was only $100 from Sweetwater. I was NOT expecting this device to work any better than it does.

I'll keep working it... there IS a place for it in my arsenal.

How smooth are the pitch bends? I've been thinking about getting the guitar one.

How smooth are the pitch bends?

It's okay. The B2M is preset to +/- 2 steps. If you go beyond, in either direction, it triggers a new note. This retriggering might be due to the way the T-3 is set (i.e., play lowest note), but I don't know, haven't had a lot of time with the B2M.

There are SO MANY was to configure things... I haven't sorted things out yet.

If you can set the T3 to lowest note MIDI priority, that would be cool because you could always have it playing the lowest note of your guitar chord.

Stick_Player wrote:Played with the B2M today. It skips around a lot. Mixes up the octave.

Hi Stick_Player,

Try using your tone knob (or an EQ between the Bass and the B2M) to
isolate more of the fundamental frequency. All of these audio-based
tracking boxes will track on whichever frequency is the loudest.

A living, breathing bass note can occasionally have as much energy an
octave above the fundamental while it's ringing. If you split your bass
signal you can EQ one path for the B2M and another for your regular
bass sound.

Also, be completely anal about never letting two strings ring at the same
time; not even for an instant when going from note to note. The Sonuus
boxes are monophonic only.

Stick_Player wrote:The B2M is preset to +/- 2 steps. If you go beyond, in either direction,
it triggers a new note. This retriggering might be due to the way the T-3 is set.

This has to do with how MIDI Pitch Bends work in general. Let's use
a PitchBend wheel as an example first. The wheel itself doesn't dictate
how far the PB Range is. That's determined by the sound device that's
receiving the PB message. So... if I had a MIDI Controller connected to
two different MIDI modules, and one had a PitchBend Range set to +/-
2 half steps and the other module was set to +/- 12 half steps, then
each would bend their unique amount when I pushed the PB wheel all
the way up.

This is the same with guitar/bass MIDI except that there's one more
element of complication. There is no *exact* amount of "full" PitchBend
on a string. If you're strong and the string is fresh you can certainly bend
well beyond 2 half steps.

So... how do MIDI guitar processors deal with this? They require that
you tell them what you consider a "full bend". If you set it to 2 half steps,
and then bend a string up two half steps it will send a PB message of
a full bend. If you've also set your receiving sound module's PB Range to
2 half steps then you'll hear the same amount of bend on your module
as you hear coming from your string.

If you bend your string more than 2 half steps, your MIDI guitar processor
can't bend the PB message any farther because it's already sending a full-on
upward PB message. So it starts the next highest note and applies whatever
additional PB amount is needed to match your guitar string.

*That's* why it's retriggering a note. If you don't like that, on higher-priced
MIDI guitar processors you can set the PB Range to 3 (or more) half steps.
Set your synth 's PB Range to 3 half steps (or more) and now the note will
only retrigger when you exceed 3 half-steps. (The Sonuus boxes are fixed
at 2 half steps.)

But... if you don't care about matching your guitar/bass string's bend amount
to the resulting synth's bend amount, you can do some wild things.

For example, if your MIDI guitar processor is set for 2 half-step bends, but your
receiving module is set for 12 half-step bends, then every time you bend your
string 2 half steps your synth will bend up an octave (or more if your synth's
PB range can go higher than that). By doing ordinary string bends you can
get heroic bends on your synth. You can also do extreme vibratos.

Klopfgeist wrote:If you can set the T3 to lowest note MIDI priority, that would be cool because
you could always have it playing the lowest note of your guitar chord.

Hi Klopfgeist,

Cool idea but unfortunately, at least as of 2010, we don't have the computer
power needed to isolate combined polyphonic notes and separate them into
individual signals in real time. That's what "hexaphonic" pickups are for. They're
really six completely isolated pickups that each feed a separate Freq -> MIDI
converter. As such the Sonuus boxes require that you play only single notes
and that you play them without any overlap at all. This is the major cause of
what people are perceiving as "glitchiness". For that brief instant when the
old note is dying and the new note is starting (when they're on two separate
strings), you're giving the Sonuus two different notes. The glitchiness is the
processor switching between whichever freq is the strongest at that instant.

Here's an article I wrote for Electronic Musician a while back:

http://emusician.com/misc/emusic_sixstring_synthesis/

Hope this helps...

c7sus wrote:I've used the G2M with the Voyager and it's fun but tracking is a bit weird.
It definitely tracks better --i.e. faster-- above the 12th fret.

Hi C7sus,

This is because most Audio -> MIDI converters require at least one and a
half cycles to positively identify a note. The very lowest notes of a bass
guitar take a much longer time to wiggle one and a half times than the
notes from a guitar. (As expected, every octave down takes twice as long.)

So, your solution of using the higher octaves on your bass is a good one.
Simply set your synth to play one octave lower than standard and you'll
get the lower notes with the tracking speed of the higher notes.

Once upon a time, Yamaha took this to the extreme and made the
G10 MIDI guitar with 6 high-E strings. Acoustically it sounded very bizarre,
but the MIDI Notes were offset such that the MIDI Notes that it sent were
correct for a standard guitar tuning:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/14001 ... 9a257c.jpg

Most guitarists were not open to this concept and so it was discontinued.
But it tracked amazingly well.

Oops, I didn't realize that the sonuss tracked only monophonic notes (instead of only sending out one midi note). But with a hexaphonic pickup it would be cool to control several moogs with a Taurus as the lowest note.

_DemonDan_ wrote:Cool idea but unfortunately, at least as of 2010, we don't have the computer
power needed to isolate combined polyphonic notes and separate them into
individual signals in real time.

Well, we're nearly there:

http://www.tcelectronic.com/polytune.asp

Yes I knew about trying to "EQ out" the upper harmonics. And about the setting of the sound module to +/- 12 steps (or more) to achieve 'wider' pitch bend. I was commenting on the effect of BOTH - the sound module and B2M - set to +/- 2 steps and then sliding down an octave on my EUB.

Currently I have four basses into a RANE 42s line mixer (all the instruments have preamps in front of the 42s). I have the T-3 going into the EFX return, as I don't need to EQ it. The EFX send is going to an Electro-Harmonix Signal Pad pedal (I have it modified to attenuate or kill the signal level), then to the Sonuus B2M. One needs to control the input signal to the B2M - it's rather sensitive. Routing this way allows me to access the B2M from an electric bass, electric fretless, electric upright, and Chapman Stick.

At this point, things are working pretty good. Fast playing is not going to happen as indicated above - it just takes a given amount of time to convert low frequencies. Interestingly, the B2M works 'better' with lower frequencies. There are more pitch glitches when I play in higher ranges. Occasionally, the B2M is telling the T-3 to play one or two octaves BELOW the pitch I am playing - so much for reading the fundamental.

As an effect, the B2M is worth $100 - it can be musical.

It is 'fun' to play a bass and also have the T-3 arpeggiate along. I have the RC-50 clocking the T-3. Using a piano sustain pedal opens up some other possibilities and stepping on a T-3 pedal (lowest note priority) will allow one to play higher "un-midified" bass lines.

I have a MIDI Solutions Quadra Merge box. Plugged into that is an Oxygen 8, RC-50, and B2M all merged into the T-3. With the modified Electro-Harmonix Signal Pad pedal, I can take the B2M out.

Yeah, but can you play the Barney Miller theme?

Seriously, that all sounds highly impressive.

Yeah, but can you play the Barney Miller theme?

Yes I can. Well, the bass line, that is.