Moog Music Forum

In the Moog Movie, Rick Wakeman stated that back in the day, guitar players used to cringe when someone would enter the jam with a MiniMoog.

Now I certianly don't want to come across as arrogant or anything like that at all, but I got invited recently to a bi monthly jam that Ive attended probably 4 or 5 times. It was really just a fun get together with various musicians...sometimes there might be at least 3 guitar players and even 2 bass players....then myself on the Moog and a drummer. Straight up blues.

Now my goal, because Im not a great keyboard player persay, was multi fasceted....sometimes I would try to take a lead, sometimes Id fall back on the role of an organ player, and sometimes I would try to punctuate wherever I could like a horn section might. I went specifically to force myself to play in unfamilliar keys. Granted, Im not so horroble a player that its intolerable to even listen to...I try to play with taste to compensate for my lack of technical skill.

I began to notice very quickly that the main guitar players just shut me out entirely of the communication link. One would play a solo, then the other would play a solo, then Id try to find a place to take a solo but it was becomming a volume war with no open window for me to do pretty much anything. The guitar players would talk to eachother about the changes and turnarounds and never tell me what they were. I also was aware during a series of random key changes, that the guitar player was intentionally trying to throw me off. I say this because they were just random key changes at inappropriate times in this particular rhythmic progression (12 bar blues).

Now Im fully aware of the capabillity of a synthesizer like a Moog. I know how it cuts through and I know that in its extreme ranges it can blow peoples ears off, so IM TRYING TO BE MINDFUL AND RESPECTFUL OF PEOPLES EARDRUMS. Im the type of player that is really "ears conscious" so I try my damnest to protect my hering and others too. But one of these guitar players (who has been a friend since kindergarden) does a solo with this super high gain blues driver pedal and its extremely loud.....then proceeds to play rhythm guitar (12 bar blues, 1 4 5 progression) without turning the pedal off. About the only place that I can play is in the extreme upper register, beyond that of which a guitar can normally reach in order to hear myself or be heard. In essence, the highest 6 keys of the Voyager.

Then, the last time I went, I showed up in a great mood, looking to have a great time and im all set up ready to go when the drummer gives me this lecture and this is basically what he said to me
"Eric, when someone is doing a solo, can you fall back? I mean like maybe do what the bass player is doing or something?"

(granted im smiling and nodding while he is saying this to me)

"Well what I try to do is to take on the roll of an organ player or I can punctuate bass lines...I try to do different things...."

"Well Im wondering if you can just fall back you know...do what the bass player is doing or something because Im listening to these recordings and it sounds like you are just playing for yourself."

"Well you have 15 guitar players here and no organization, its pretty much anyones guess as to when to take a solo... [and noone is even giving me the opportunity]... (I put that in brackets because I didn't get a chance to say it. Thats about all that was said anyway.


Now granted, I smiled and nodded and was polite because ive been playing music for 15 years (keyboards only within the last few years) and I know not to try to upstage anyone, I know to let people have solos and I kow when NOT to play. I really didn't understand where this was coming from. I just thought, well this guy doesn't know me that well and doesn't know how much experience that I have so Im sure he didn't mean anything bad, but I was pretty much at a loss of motivation. We proceeded to play this 12 minute long 12 bar blues in A and recorded it, followed by another 10 minutes of the same 12 bar blues in A, and I pretty much just didn't play very much at all.

Then I go to play a song that I had written for jamming with them and the guitar player and the bass player looked totally disgusted, the guitar player was obviously bored and stopped playing during the song, tried to end it early, and the bass player was giving me these dirty looks. WHen the song was done (the drummer enjoyed it and complimented it) the guitar and bass left the room for 20 minutes, came back and started playing rockabilly country music. (Im in Arkansas)
I told the guitar player..."Scott, theres 2 things in this world that don't go together...and Im trying hard ......but thats Moog and country music." I really think they did it on purpose. THen they played some slow sappy ballads like wonderful tonight that also don't have very much room for synthesizer parts. (Granted I like that song but its not something that I think a lot of people would like to slosh through....its like marching through a swamp at a jam and i wasn't the only person there that felt like that)

So.....after all of this...after the excomminucation (for lack of a better word) and the volume wars.....Have any of you experienced anything like this with your Moogs? Is this sort of what Rick Wakeman was talking about....do you think that the guitar players might have been threatened by the Moog? or do you think its just a bunch of Male Ego bullshite?

Needlesss to say I am not going to go back there because obviously it wasn't a greatly productive or fun experience like it was intended to be and its aparent to me that they weren't enjoying my contributions.


Your thoughts?

Eric

Sounds like you are dealing with some big egos. Find someone else to jam with, they will be lost causes. (It's difficult in this day and age to find 'guitarists' who have played with keyboard players as we are few and far between anymore.)
You might want to start your own jam session and invite them one at a time to it. It's easier to deal with them when they aren't in a group.
(Or play Outlaws or Molly Hatchet style riffs along with them and pretend you are the 3rd guitar. LOL)

I say, if there's another jam, videotape it, post the more egregious bits on YT, and then invite the guitar players (along with the rest of the world) to watch (without mentioning your intent, of course). If what you say is accurate, and if these dudes have any sense of professionalism, I'd guess that some kind of apology or admission of guilt might be offered.

If not, blow those losers off. It's a big world, and surely you can find folks to jam with who aren't total wankers.

my 2¢

Well I mean, they aren't bad people and I don't want to make them look bad but I was really trying to figure out why they were tripping. Its not like we were rehearsing for a show...and when things are dragging you have to do SOMETHING to keep from being bored. I was just wondering if this was the Moog factor Wakeman referred to. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it lol.

There IS video out there though.

Edit

Now I have found that Im in some of these videos...and I can see some of what the drummer was talking about but this just a few snippets of a particular night.

These are from the second night I went there, I brought headphones to act like a monitor. It was really hard for me to hear and I think that the camera can pick up some things my ears couldn't because of my position in the room. So, Ill admit I made some bad choices here and there as to what to play...but the drummer was acting like this was all the time.

Ill let you guys be the judge.


Forgive me if posting this seemed like I was trying to rag on these guys.....they are all good guys.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... =461622611
Im in the June 5th vids....warning some of that is unpleasant.

There are some very unflattering pictures of me from that night....I was frustrated lol.

Eric

Guitar players!

Well. . . I'm a guitar player and I have the right to be critical. It seems that most are driven by their egos. Very few jammer/hack guitarists know how to play rhythm or listen. They don't play for the song; they play for themselves. They seem to have no self-control for volume. Non-amplified ensembles know that when someone solos, they are to reduce their volumes. Electric/amplified musicians turn UP their volume when soloing, and before you know it, the volume of the room in intolerable (except to the hack guitarist.)

I'm lucky in that the group I jam with love keyboards and horns. Even so, the volumes keep increasing throughout the night.

The sign ogf a good musician is not how well he plays but knowing when not to play, when not to solo, when to use dynamics (that's quiet as well as loud).

i'm a guitarist first and well i don't really like guitar solos and i go to great lengths to avoid playing Blues (like restringing my guitars in such a way as it's impossible to play scale shapes).

On a side note i always wear my moulded earplugs to all gigs nowadays - saw Hank III a couple of weeks ago and that was really loud (and got louder).

My initial reaction was that the synth sound was far too electronic and different from the sound and style the rest were playing.
It sounded like Snoop Dog meets the Charley Daniels band.
What some people in rap and hip hop call "worms."

You're in a difficult position though if you're playing a monosynth.
Go too low and the bass player will hate you.
Go too high and the guitarists will.
Because it's a mono synth (I'm guessing), you're stuck either playing drones of the tonic (I-IV-V) or some sort of complimentary melody or riff.
In any of those cases, you'd need a less forefront sound.
You're supporting the rhythm section then, not soloing or drawing attention to yourself.

So if it was me in that position (and I have been many times), I'd go for supportive organ or "pad" sounds that fill in, but don't distract.
Much the way an organist would play, either holding sustained chords, comping with the beat or adding something on the accents.
I look at this more like an attempt to balance out the sound than to call attention to the sound.
Sometimes a good musician is one that provides something you can't quite put your finger on, but definitely notice their absence when they're not playing.

Kevin those are some good points. Alot of stuff that we were jamming on was 1 4 5 progressions, 12 bar blues, then someone will start playing some original changes or then some kind of cover like knockin on heavens door or something like that. Then one will start with some rockabilly type scoot or something. The videos in which I appear we jammed for several hours.

Yes though, very difficult for a monosynth....especially cause Im not a very great keyoard player. Bass and percussion are my instruments of choise, Ive only gotten into synthesis within the last 5 years.

I do my magic in the studio when I can write a melody or compose an arrangement and so going out to these jams is supposed to be an excercise for me. Im really trying to avoid the blues patterns, though i have to learn them on the keyboard.

I can play better than whats on those videos but its really hard to find a niche in a situation like that. Im more into funk than anythnig else, so Id love to be able to lay down some Worrell style fills and such, but I don't think that theres too much of that groove happening there. Its really the place for some serious bluesmanship.

I dont think everyone appreciates the types of thing that Moog can do.....the trick I guess is trying ti get the Moog to fit in where its supposed to. Id be really happy if I would have had the Rhodes there, but thats too heavy to lug around...and too priceless. The Voyager is about the same way lol.

Part of the problem is trying to invent a sound that will stick out. I use only original programming now and finding something crisp enough that will cut through and that i can hear myself is key. Perhaps if I had a high gain blues driver pedal.


Interesting points, Kevin thanks.

E

On a situation where the jams are going to be blues based, I think you should try and do horn fills. A Moog could do that easily.

Fills are a good idea, but you have to have good timing.
You're playing in the upper range, but punctuating as part of the rhythm section.

You might ask the guys if they're open to the idea of opening some space as a bridge or other place you could be the showcase.
Perhaps ask them if you could do a good spacey intro ala Gary Wright and maybe the same as a fade out.
Use the synth for what it's best at.
You're going to stand out like a sore thumb in basic guitar blues stuff unless you're really a good player.
Often if a keyboardist isn't very good or the band doesn't know where to place them, they'll ask for a high string note during a chorus or bridge.
Something they can't really mess up on and adds to the overall emotion of the piece.
In this case, think "Linda McCartney", not Keith Emerson.

Another possibility would be to ask if the bass player would mind sitting out or playing something mostly rhythmic an octave higher.
This would give you a chance to practice playing bass.
If you're learning how to play with others, one of the most important things is being part of the rhythm section.
Since you probably can't pull off drums and it's a monosynth, you're pretty much left to being the bass.
There's a lot of room to play around in if you're the bass player and it's basic 1-4-5 blues. It's hard to get lost.
So I don't know how accommodating your buddies are, but it really sounds like they're not making enough room for you.
Unless you can out-solo one of them, they'll likely never give you much spotlight. You might have to actually ask.

Hey, I need a keyboard player who'd be willing to play some bass lines....

Well looking at any of the good players they can make their instrument fit on any style of music, and horn parts are cool....but it can almost be as bland as playing "auxillary percussion" and having only a set of bongos to work with.


Basically, im not going back. Its too far to drive, and id rather put my energy like that with a group of people who might want to take it live.

Really though, people who have been playing as long as these guys (drummer says he played with Stevie Ray Vaughn once; one of the bass players played with Al Green) should understand theres some consideration involved. I don't particularly respond well to someone telling me what they want me to play (not like you guys are doing) unless they are a serious composer (and not full of themselves). One shouldn't look at a player and assume either way that they are a world class player or a wet behind the ears beginner...they should see what they are made of and give them a chance to be who they are. If its just a jam then why bother with the lectures. Sometimes in the middle of the solo the guitarist will revert back to rhythm. They should at least say "Im going to take a 48 bar solo here" and then end it and let someone else go up there.

My friend from kindergarden (Luke) said that "I pretty much am just listening to the drums and the guitar." so he basically said that he's not even listening to me.

Its a nice feeling to leave a session feeling so inspired and leaving the floor like you really made some magic in there. I haven't gotten that feeling yet, not even playing "Cocaine" at the house of a man who is a resource officer for the local schools lol.

I came up with a song that a bass player can feel around with and that all guitarists and drums were free to do whatever and that bored them to death.

HB3 wrote:Hey, I need a keyboard player who'd be willing to play some bass lines....

Im just a beginning keyboard player, but I am left handed and a bass player first. I think like a bass player and I could do some interesting things with my left hand if I knew my way around better.

I do a LOT of interesting things with my left hand...actually, I'm left-handed too, but I've always played guitar (or bass) right handed.

The problem with my band is I'm playing piccolo bass, which is in between the pitch range of a bass and guitar...having a bass player would seem like overkill, and there's also a huge synth element to it all...so, my ideal solution would be a trio with a keyboard player and drummer. I've got the drummer...need the keyboardist.

My long time collaborator won't do anything but play video games and I barely hear from him but once a month....meanwhile Im getting new gear and wanting to write new songs....

Man we just need to clone ourselves.