I've already got a TC Electronics chorus/flanger/pitch shifter; I use a Moog ring mod, CP251 and low pass filter -
does the Moog phaser give me much that I don't already have covered? I know you can patch in some voltage control to and from the other units, but on a practical level does that increase the sonic possibilities over what I already have? thanks!
moog phaser - worth getting?
I have the Choralflange by Fulltone, the moogerfooger phaser, a Morley Saphire Flange, and a Dunlop Rotovibe (chorus/vibrato pedal). I also have the Moogerfooger low pass and I should be getting my CP-251 returned to me next week. Since you already have the the ring mod pedal, I'd say go ahead and complete the collection. As you know already know, the pedals increase each others functionality (have you fed the low pass' envelop out into the 251, one of the first things I'm going to do when I get mine back is fool around with that kind of routing). The phaser generates an lfo but different in it's range of frequencies than the cp-251. this might give you new wave forms you can create for control voltages when mixing them.
Also, a phaser isn't quite like a chorus or a flanger, and I really have always liked the sound of phasers. The fact that I only have one (I have an old DOD that is broken, and a Small Stone which is similarly broken) is something I can't really explain. I love a phaser on chords and arpeggios, to me it sounds more trippy and less shimmery than a chorus and not as "warm up band for foghat" as a flanger. That said the moogerfooger phaser if rather unique and can get some really out-there effects as well as some new twists on "classic" phaser sounds. It is a pedal that can keep you experimenting.
Also, a phaser isn't quite like a chorus or a flanger, and I really have always liked the sound of phasers. The fact that I only have one (I have an old DOD that is broken, and a Small Stone which is similarly broken) is something I can't really explain. I love a phaser on chords and arpeggios, to me it sounds more trippy and less shimmery than a chorus and not as "warm up band for foghat" as a flanger. That said the moogerfooger phaser if rather unique and can get some really out-there effects as well as some new twists on "classic" phaser sounds. It is a pedal that can keep you experimenting.
low pass envelope out
thanks....you know, I don't hear any effect when I patch the envelope out jack on the low pass filter to either the ring mod or the CP251...anyone else have a different experience?
Well as soon as I get my 251 in I'm going to try it out, but here is how I'd think it should work, and I'm trying it out as I type.
I ran my guitar into the audio in of the low pass filter, the audio out of that into the in of the phaser then out to my amp (next time I'll stick a compressor in between sort of maxed out, allowing the attack to be measured by the low pass but then compressing the signal before the phaser acts on it, thus I'll hear mor of the changes the envelop is doing with less of the decay or exagerated attack used to generate the envelop) this generates the attack envelop that I send into the rate of the phaser. When I hit the strings hard I can clearly hear the rate of the phaser start of fast and slow over a few cycles. It is actually very cool. I tried a couple of other ways, but this is the most obvious way to see how it works. When I get the CP-251 I'll try it with the attenuator circuit to see how it might extend or tweak the shape of the envelop generated by the low pass, then this can be multed in the 251's mult and sent to the resonance, sweep and Lfo all at the same time-- that would be like turning the three knobs simultaneously.
I'm not sure if you can use the ring mod like I set up the phaser to feed off of the envelop but I'd imagin you could, but remember to fool around with the knob of the parameter you're setting as it makes a difference (It did with the rate of the lfo on the phaser-- to fast and the speed was too fast for me to hear a real change.
But, back to the oringal topic, I like the phaser, but I'd not use a chorus to get the sound I get with the phaser, I use chorus for sort of subtle effects either with or with out the compressor on arpeggios (southern rock chord pick is one way), or on chords just to give it a little kick of flavor or thickness. I use the phaser for more trippy sounding things, and a flanger for the over the top sound it can get. The Rotovibe I use for Robin Trower type stuff (although I used to use it a lot more, these other pedals meet my needs better now).
I ran my guitar into the audio in of the low pass filter, the audio out of that into the in of the phaser then out to my amp (next time I'll stick a compressor in between sort of maxed out, allowing the attack to be measured by the low pass but then compressing the signal before the phaser acts on it, thus I'll hear mor of the changes the envelop is doing with less of the decay or exagerated attack used to generate the envelop) this generates the attack envelop that I send into the rate of the phaser. When I hit the strings hard I can clearly hear the rate of the phaser start of fast and slow over a few cycles. It is actually very cool. I tried a couple of other ways, but this is the most obvious way to see how it works. When I get the CP-251 I'll try it with the attenuator circuit to see how it might extend or tweak the shape of the envelop generated by the low pass, then this can be multed in the 251's mult and sent to the resonance, sweep and Lfo all at the same time-- that would be like turning the three knobs simultaneously.
I'm not sure if you can use the ring mod like I set up the phaser to feed off of the envelop but I'd imagin you could, but remember to fool around with the knob of the parameter you're setting as it makes a difference (It did with the rate of the lfo on the phaser-- to fast and the speed was too fast for me to hear a real change.
But, back to the oringal topic, I like the phaser, but I'd not use a chorus to get the sound I get with the phaser, I use chorus for sort of subtle effects either with or with out the compressor on arpeggios (southern rock chord pick is one way), or on chords just to give it a little kick of flavor or thickness. I use the phaser for more trippy sounding things, and a flanger for the over the top sound it can get. The Rotovibe I use for Robin Trower type stuff (although I used to use it a lot more, these other pedals meet my needs better now).
cool. I've got the CP251, lowpass filter and ring mod. Despite a lot of tweaking, I really can't hear anything modulation wise out of the 'envelope out' jack, but I think that's because the ring mod effects don't respond to the subtlety of env out. However, I did find that
the carrier out of the ring mod plugged into the low pass filter 'amount' gives a nice growl, the LFO of the cp251 should do the same.
Be careful of plugging anything into the 'resonance' jack - it can tear your head off quite unexpectedly!
the carrier out of the ring mod plugged into the low pass filter 'amount' gives a nice growl, the LFO of the cp251 should do the same.
Be careful of plugging anything into the 'resonance' jack - it can tear your head off quite unexpectedly!
Hey Gerry,
Try this, run your audio into the low pass filter, then into the ring mod then to amp. If you have a compressor stick it between the moogerfoogers. Then as you play your instrument set the drive to hit mostly yellow on the low pass-- the low pass can be bypassed and this all should still work. Set the envelop control to 10. Then with a tip-ring-sleeve cable plug the envelop out to the rate in or the mix in on the ring mod, and turn on the ring mod while the low pass is bypassed and play. while playing vary the attack you play with on your instrument and tweak the rate knob (or mix if you patched the envelop to that) to set the value that the envelop will be altering. You should hear something then. I think the key is to set the drive on the low pass correctly and to play instrument that lets you vary your attack.
I'd really like to know how that works-- as I'm sort of considering down the road adding the ring mod if I think it will give me something I can use.
Try this, run your audio into the low pass filter, then into the ring mod then to amp. If you have a compressor stick it between the moogerfoogers. Then as you play your instrument set the drive to hit mostly yellow on the low pass-- the low pass can be bypassed and this all should still work. Set the envelop control to 10. Then with a tip-ring-sleeve cable plug the envelop out to the rate in or the mix in on the ring mod, and turn on the ring mod while the low pass is bypassed and play. while playing vary the attack you play with on your instrument and tweak the rate knob (or mix if you patched the envelop to that) to set the value that the envelop will be altering. You should hear something then. I think the key is to set the drive on the low pass correctly and to play instrument that lets you vary your attack.
I'd really like to know how that works-- as I'm sort of considering down the road adding the ring mod if I think it will give me something I can use.
tried it....
....and didn't hear any difference 
. I can see where something subtle like the phaser rate might be audible with env out, but it didn't do squat with the ring mod. I think the ring mod 'likes' to see LFO generators as the controllers for it's CV inputs, or pedals - ie, things which extremely alternate the voltage. I don't think the envelope out generates extreme voltage differences like that, probably designed more for the phaser.
The ring mod can give a very sweet univibe-like tremelo, but it's main mission in life is to really distort, deconstruct and destroy your tones and notes in a very musical way - , at bedroom volume, it can sound like a marshall stack blowing up, especially with pedals to vary the mix and frequency.
. I can see where something subtle like the phaser rate might be audible with env out, but it didn't do squat with the ring mod. I think the ring mod 'likes' to see LFO generators as the controllers for it's CV inputs, or pedals - ie, things which extremely alternate the voltage. I don't think the envelope out generates extreme voltage differences like that, probably designed more for the phaser.The ring mod can give a very sweet univibe-like tremelo, but it's main mission in life is to really distort, deconstruct and destroy your tones and notes in a very musical way - , at bedroom volume, it can sound like a marshall stack blowing up, especially with pedals to vary the mix and frequency.
Not even hooked up through the "Mix" input thing???? 
I'm sort of freaking out. There is a dealer in my area, maybe I'll go in and check it out and see if I can make a ring mod dance to the envelop's tune so to speak. I just looked at the ring mod and read along on the "moogerfooger madness" pages in the new archive and I really think what I'm saying should work. You could try to rig it like I said, but into the carrier input.
The other thing to try is set it up exactly like I say in the other post, but feed the low passes envelop out into the 251's lag processer in the hopes that this would tweak the shape of the wave of the envelop, or see if it can be feed through the sample and hold area. Or run the envelop out into the mult on the 251, then run three cables from the mult out into each of the ring mod's CV ins.
I'm sort of freaking out. There is a dealer in my area, maybe I'll go in and check it out and see if I can make a ring mod dance to the envelop's tune so to speak. I just looked at the ring mod and read along on the "moogerfooger madness" pages in the new archive and I really think what I'm saying should work. You could try to rig it like I said, but into the carrier input.
The other thing to try is set it up exactly like I say in the other post, but feed the low passes envelop out into the 251's lag processer in the hopes that this would tweak the shape of the wave of the envelop, or see if it can be feed through the sample and hold area. Or run the envelop out into the mult on the 251, then run three cables from the mult out into each of the ring mod's CV ins.
Also, are you making sure the low pass' s drive is being driven to yellow, and that you're using TRS cables and the envelop is set to 10, and you're tweaking say the knob of the parameter at the ring mod to put it in a range there the envelop's tweaking will be noticable (I have to think the mix input and knob would have to be noticable)? I'm sure you've done all of these, I'm just trying to see what could be wrong because this should work. I'm not buying that the Envelop CV is to subtle to effect the ring mod noticably.
mission accomplished
The other thing to try is set it up exactly like I say in the other post, but feed the low passes envelop out into the 251's lag processer in the hopes that this would tweak the shape of the wave of the envelop, or see if it can be feed through the sample and hold area. Or run the envelop out into the mult on the 251, then run three cables from the mult out into each of the ring mod's CV ins.
OK, you're right - it's working. Depending on how hard I hit the strings, the ring mod sound periodicity changes - ie, if I hit them hard, it warbles fairly quickly and slows down as the signal decays.
The only problem is you do have to crank the gain on the low pass (like you said), and that lessens the 'wah' sound of the unit, ie it's like raising the cutoff fairly high.
One thing cool about the ring mod, you can set it up for a nice tremelo and use the foot controller to vary the speed, like a leslie.
OK, you're right - it's working. Depending on how hard I hit the strings, the ring mod sound periodicity changes - ie, if I hit them hard, it warbles fairly quickly and slows down as the signal decays.
The only problem is you do have to crank the gain on the low pass (like you said), and that lessens the 'wah' sound of the unit, ie it's like raising the cutoff fairly high.
One thing cool about the ring mod, you can set it up for a nice tremelo and use the foot controller to vary the speed, like a leslie.
I just got my CP 251 returned to me today, I haven't rigged it up today but hopfully I'll do it tommorrow.
Insufficient drive on the low pass kills the effect big time, it took me a while to figure that out, often on stage I'd get nothing from it and rather than troubleshoot I'd pull it out and the chain and just run straight into the amp. It didn't help that I'd decide what bass to play any given night on my way out the door.
And remember the low pass can be in bypass and you'll still generate the envelop that can be sent to the ring mod or the cp 251.
I'm starting to get interested in the ring mod a little, but at this point my pedal board is going to need a second power supply (two voodoo labs pedal powers on one pedal board, somehow I don't think I'll be the first).
Do you find the ring mod usefull for your guitar playing? What sounds do you get from it, or what purpose does it serve guitar playing?
Insufficient drive on the low pass kills the effect big time, it took me a while to figure that out, often on stage I'd get nothing from it and rather than troubleshoot I'd pull it out and the chain and just run straight into the amp. It didn't help that I'd decide what bass to play any given night on my way out the door.
And remember the low pass can be in bypass and you'll still generate the envelop that can be sent to the ring mod or the cp 251.
I'm starting to get interested in the ring mod a little, but at this point my pedal board is going to need a second power supply (two voodoo labs pedal powers on one pedal board, somehow I don't think I'll be the first).
Do you find the ring mod usefull for your guitar playing? What sounds do you get from it, or what purpose does it serve guitar playing?
The ring mod is very versatile for both clean tremelos and dense harmonic distortions without the fizz (check out the sound samples if you haven't already done so). Using it, I can get the guitar to sound a lot like the Moog tones Emerson got on Tarkus, Brain Salad surgery. The ring mod effect is really key IMHO to making the early Moog synths sound 'musical', because the ring mod added the overtones to a simple sine wave tone generator, and you know that what distinguishes one instrument, or voice from another is the unique combo of overtones. For the Moog, those overtones came from the ring mod. The low pass filter with the ring mod gives Zawinul Weather Report type tones from the guitar.
Hey Gerry,
I've listened to Tarkus and Brain Salad over and over, I love those albums. As I think of the various sounds from them I'm not sure which could come from the ring mod, but then I'm probably selling the device short. I've never thought of ring mods as musical but you're making me think of them in a different light. I wasn't knocked out by the sound samples I heard.
I guess the "agry steel drum" sound sound in brain salad (one of my favorite parts of the tune, I wish I had a better way to describe it) is ring mod.
In Tarkus there is the "marching ducks" sound towards the end that fade right before the reprise of the opening theme-- that is one of my favorite sounds in that tune.
I'm going back to listen to them-- I've never even thought about getting those sounds out of my guitar-- but now with an eye towards seeing what sounds could be emulated on guitar.
We are freezing out butts off here in NJ, but I'm going to go now and set up my recently returned 251 to see how it works and how to intergrate it into my pedal board (which now litterally needs a second voodoo labs power supply, and I'd about half fill that up easily).
I've listened to Tarkus and Brain Salad over and over, I love those albums. As I think of the various sounds from them I'm not sure which could come from the ring mod, but then I'm probably selling the device short. I've never thought of ring mods as musical but you're making me think of them in a different light. I wasn't knocked out by the sound samples I heard.
I guess the "agry steel drum" sound sound in brain salad (one of my favorite parts of the tune, I wish I had a better way to describe it) is ring mod.
In Tarkus there is the "marching ducks" sound towards the end that fade right before the reprise of the opening theme-- that is one of my favorite sounds in that tune.
I'm going back to listen to them-- I've never even thought about getting those sounds out of my guitar-- but now with an eye towards seeing what sounds could be emulated on guitar.
We are freezing out butts off here in NJ, but I'm going to go now and set up my recently returned 251 to see how it works and how to intergrate it into my pedal board (which now litterally needs a second voodoo labs power supply, and I'd about half fill that up easily).
hey peacefrog, are you a guitarist or bassist, or both?
I tried my bass thru the ring mod, as expected it's less dramatic than the guitar because of it's freq range, but still out there/different.
With the low pass and ring mod, the guitar can approximate authentic 70s Moog sounds like the 'angry steel drum' or 'marching ducks' (LOL). The ring mod is one of the few guitar stomp boxes I've heard that can sound 'far out' without sounding cheesy at the same time.
I think Adrian Bellew (?spelling) used a ring mod with King Crimson.
I tried my bass thru the ring mod, as expected it's less dramatic than the guitar because of it's freq range, but still out there/different.
With the low pass and ring mod, the guitar can approximate authentic 70s Moog sounds like the 'angry steel drum' or 'marching ducks' (LOL). The ring mod is one of the few guitar stomp boxes I've heard that can sound 'far out' without sounding cheesy at the same time.
I think Adrian Bellew (?spelling) used a ring mod with King Crimson.
I started on bass, switched to guitar, and have gone back and forth depending on the projects Im involved in and my own goals. Right now I'm playing guitar and concentrating on that but I'll play bass to record as needed for my own music.
I bought the low pass for my bass playing and I got much milage out of it in all sorts of ways. I've had a love/hate relationship with it on guitar, but I'm seeing it now as an integral part of my pedal board which has sort of undergone recent upgrades and expansions. If the drive setting isn't set perfectly everytime I plug it in on guitar the tone just seems to suffer and sound dead, but when it is right it is a very special sounding effect.
Now that you mention Adrian of King Crimson, I think you're right about the ring mod on his guitar. Also the closing credits of South Park must be a ring mod.
I bought the low pass for my bass playing and I got much milage out of it in all sorts of ways. I've had a love/hate relationship with it on guitar, but I'm seeing it now as an integral part of my pedal board which has sort of undergone recent upgrades and expansions. If the drive setting isn't set perfectly everytime I plug it in on guitar the tone just seems to suffer and sound dead, but when it is right it is a very special sounding effect.
Now that you mention Adrian of King Crimson, I think you're right about the ring mod on his guitar. Also the closing credits of South Park must be a ring mod.