seanpark wrote:
Those smaller teal sealed pots actually have a much nicer feel IMHO. I sent my Sub37 in for a warranty repair of a different front panel issue (minor thing that didn't really affect playability) and it seems they swapped mine for the new metal-shaft big pot. ..They both feel good, I just like the smoother feel of the sealed pots.
Interesting! Can TOOM give that a fair appraisal or will metal bias kick in? We could assume smoothness from a plastic/sealed unit and robustness and tougher/pro feel from the metal shaft pots. I've certainly in my time had some metal pots that may not be described as exactly smooth (or anywhere near as nice to use as I feel the Sub 37's plastic ones are) so there's pros/cons to both types. Of course, ultimately, reliability wins over small improvements (or not) in feel... sad we can't have both.
OK on with the info:
I have a 5000's serial Sub 37 built in March 2015, I've had it since late April I think so not that long. So far I've had zero filter pot problems, I'm a somewhat careful user as I am with all my gear, I'm not heavy handed, I don't do drugs then go mental on my synths (I mean I don't do drugs
ever btw.. not just while synthing) while nodding my head a 1000 times a second with my sweaty cave man hands bumbling around the control panel and whacking the pots left to right... *ahem* SO I would hope that I won't ever get to see this issue at all. I don't baby the synth, I enjoy it just fine but I tend to not go mad with the filter pot, I just 'play it' as you would any filter pot, smoothly and without twisting. Sometimes I may just roll it lightly from one side (no flex) with a finger moving down... of course how anyone chooses to move their cut off pot shouldn't really be held against them (so long as they don't treat their 37 like a 6 year old treats a toy eh?).
I can see and understand the concerns of the couple of vocal posters in this thread worrying about 12 months from now, even 3 years from now (for me.. even 10 years from now as a proud owner of many older synths from the 80s I have nothing against keeping /using synths for years and I'd hope the Sub 37 could withstand years of use too... partially why we are drawn to the 'moog' brand is an expectation of a certain quality). Of course they had to cleverly design the Sub 37 to fit all that power and fun into a unit of this price that STILL has what, by most synth standards, could be called a very luxurious build quality. So things like plastic pots, SMT and other things aid in bringing in a design on budget while allowing to make a synth that goes above and beyond what people want.
I have no complaints about the control panel as it is today (well - ok one but I'll come to that in a minute), it works, it feels nice (to me; though I've never had the luxury of a Voyager or something even more boutique and well built) and for the price I'm more than happy with the feel. The keybed is my only/main complaint (feel, stiffness and uneven keys.. but that's a different thread).
It's funny that some said all these plastic pots may be destined to fail, because my volume pot recently started to get noisy at two points in it's range (failing contact) I can't believe it's oxidization already that's causing it? It's not one of my most used pots but it does get a good 'cleaning' by using it enough to not expect any problems. So to discover it's got a bit of noise, something I'd expect from a pot on an old Juno (and have had) is a bit strange. In the case of the old 80s synths (of which I've had and still have many) they are typically ALPS all metal pots, very good quality and built to last DECADES... and they pretty much do, but you'll occasionally get problems (and can buy replacements/remakes ....) I prefer to clean them out, I did this recently on a JX-3P volume pot that had been crackly for ages, before I sold it, so due to it being a good quality metal one I actually opened the pot up itself (after desoldering) and hand cleaned the wipers and plates to remove 3 decades of oxidation and dirt, using fader cleaner and whatever I needed. It worked perfectly after this and probably will for years.
The problem with the sealed ones on the Sub 37 is you won't be spraying deoxit on them (so I can't with my Volume pot - I guess) and you can't dismantle them as they are probably molded/too fragile to work on. No problems, I can solder a new one on if needs be (have done far harder things with old synths).
To get back a bit more on topic then... I do worry that in 5 years/10 years some of these plastic pots will start skipping, or will be unclean-able, and if my volume pot is already playing up then... how long before the amp decay, or the ARP speed etc? It will be a worry, and I know Moog are a great company that will try their best to help.
So... my tl;dr type post is leading to adding a vote to at LEAST allowing the general sale - at cost price or less
- of a replacement pot board to anyone, with or without warranty and enough supply to last the years ahead. I do not think this is unreasonable, especially given the likely failure rate of the filter knob.
Also I wonder if there was any other variance between the plastic potted 37's filter pots? I see many people complain of 'supper wobbly' pots, and honestly none of mine are wobbly, the centre notched pots are clearly lighter than the others, but even so don't feel wobbly. (I don't go around purposely wobbling pots either and don't advise anyone do that to 'check' just use them normally and if they are that bad you'd probably notice), so did they somehow reduce the 'wobble' by the time they got to the 5000s? Are those with wobbly pots random? is it purely through use/wear/age or heavy handed knocks and twisting?
I also have a polysix here that has all metal pots, bolted to the panel (hey at least Sub 37's pots are bolted to the panel too! that supports them and makes them feel nice - have you SEEN the state of a lot of the prophet 6's being released? wonky pots sticking up left and right like gravestones and that's on a £2k+ synth! so lets take the Moog thing in perspective). DSI seem to continually "get pots wrong" somehow, be it the substandard/doomed encoders of the original Prophet 08, or the lack of a bolting them on to the panel resulting in them looking like a village idiot's gaping, toothy, maw... I give moog major props for going the extra mile and using nuts on the pots, so few modern makers bother doing that.
I had some old novation rack with plastic pots, much like the Sub 37, but no bolts and THEY were wobbly... the moog feels like it's made out of granite compared to that (same with the Korg MS2000 I once had - tiny, wobbly, plastic pots...)
Of course, as said above and by some others in this thread.. the Sub 37 is a "MOOG", we expect a certain quality standard, and even while it is a lot for the money it was still a pricey mono synth.
I don't think moog should just blindly recall over 5000 synths to swap boards out, this company is a small one and we need to be fair. Likewise each of us spent upto £1300 (uk price) or maybe more, buying a Sub 37 and expecting it to last a lifetime... if a £300 ebay roland can last 30+ years with SIMPLE cheap maintenance then it's not unfair of us to expect a £1300 moog BRAND NEW and scant few months old to also last for 30 years... and in the medium long term, be supported for an obvious design flaw that WAS major enough for moog to redesign the board to prevent in future.
As a couple of others have said on the thread, all we really want is:
A. The ability to BUY a replacement board for cost <$100 seems fair should we wish to have a spare to last us into the future (or to replace an out of warranty fault). I could fit this myself in my sleep, if i had to pay a service guy labour then I may not be into this option at all (unfair). I've had to do far harder jobs on 30 year old vintage synths so, thankfully, this is at least a very simple procedure for all but the most ham-fisted among us
B. The reassurance from Moog that if we have the faulty filter pot problem, regardless of warranty, they will help us out knowing it was THEIR fault. Not a user error.
It's not too hard is it? Nobody wants to put moog under or affect their profits but if they've took in millions off the sub 37 (6000 x £1000 = £6,000,000 - costs) then they ARE still in a better position than the end user who had to, in many cases, find the £1200 to put into moog with good faith. I think a non knee jerk, non panic solution would be best all round... that way the subject will get less attention outside of the moog fanatics on this forum, and prevent it spreading too far and sullying the great name of this great synth.
I do accept that, already, should one wish to sell their sub 37 on ebay they probably will get the 'is it a plastic pot' question, much like prophet 08 owners are asked 'is it the pot edition', and it's pretty unfair of the 'early adopters' to possibly be in a position to see their purchase be worth less, even if you never intend to sell it, it still feels crap to know your couldn't sell your 37 for much over half what you paid of it, so soon, based on one stupid little pot! So please moog, at least make a public/open statement that plastic pot filters are supported 'indefinitely' so that confidence is restored in your product regardless of serial number, because the less a reseller gets for his 37 will be less cash he has to put into your next synth or a voyager etc... so what goes around comes around!
Also the fact they brought the redesign in only recently begs the question... what's next for the 37 line? I mean if it was meant to be a run for only a year would they have bothered going to metal pot at this late stage? Are they in fact prepping for a 'non TE/stage' edition (that'll be cheaper AND have the metal pot! - insult and injury)
... I don't mind if they do, I like the looks of the TE and wouldn't want plastic end caps and blue lights personally. A pot that'll last would be a sure nice thing though.
As for my volume pot, I guess I'll wait and see but not heard anyone else mentioned it as a problem yet?