Moog Music Forum

So I love the sound of my Sub Phatty. I couldn't be happier about the sound but I've run into a horrible MIDI problem.
So I have a very simple setup for live use, no computer or DAW, no daisy chaining.
Due to the short keyboard on the Sub Phatty, I use a Roland A-37 to control my Sub Phatty.

Controller Keyboard: Roland A-37
Midi channel 1: Yamaha Motif Rack Midi out A on A-37 connected to Midi IN Motif Rack
Midi channel 2: Moog Sub Phatty Midi out B on A-37 connected to Midi IN Sub Phatty

What happens is if I am playing my Roland A-37 on channel 1, the Motif, and press a patch button on my A-37 that is set to do a program change on channel 2, I get a stuck "note on sound" on the Sub Phatty even if I don't play anything. Simply by pressing a patch change button on my A-37, that is set to Channel 2, my Sub Phatty emits sound on it's own, it freezes on it's own, without playing a note on the Sub Phatty keyboard or the A-37 keyboard. Basically I hit a patch change button and I hear the Sub Phatty. THis is not good since I haven't played a note from the Sub Phatty keyboard OR my controller keyboard.

This is horrible because basically it renders the Sub Phatty useless for the purpose intended I wanted to use it for. I wanted to use the Motif for my bread and butter sounds- EP's and Clavs and then use the Sub Phatty for lead sounds and solos. from the same controller keyboard, Motif on channel 1, Sub Phatty on channel 2.

To be certain that the Sub Phatty is the problem and not MIDI cables or anything else, I tried hooking up the A-37 in the exact same configuration and using other modules I have for test comparison and no other gear exhibits this horrible MIDI error. I tried a Yamaha TX802, a Roland JV1080, a Korg M1REX a Kawai K3M and a Studio Electronics ATC-1 all set to MIDI channel 2, just like the Sub Phatty in place of the Sub Phatty and they all behave the same way- without error and like they are supposed to. If I have the A-37 hooked up to any other module that I mentioned in the Sub Phatty's place, they all just sit dead silent when I select a patch on my controller set to Midi channel 2, until I play the keyboard. That's how it's supposed to work.

Has anyone else had this problem? This is a HORRIBLE MIDI problem that I am really bummed to encounter in this day and age. It basically gives me NO faith in MOOG products anymore and renders my purchase useless. I don't know if it's because of Moog rushing everything to market after previewing it at NAMM and not fully working out the MIDI spec or what the deal is.

I'm sorry folks- that's not acceptable in this day and age. With General MIDI established decades ago and MIDI, a language invented in 1983, if Japanese gear from the 80's with a super primitive MIDI spec can get program change MIDI data right and small mom and pops boutique manufacturers like Studio Electronics can get it right but the mighty Moog Music can't get it right, that's just not acceptable in my book. Why are we reinventing the wheel when it's already been done? Why do I have a bad feeling that a MIDI retrofitted MemoryMoog from eons ago would behave better MIDI wise than my Moog Sub Phatty in 2015?

Reminds me of the song: "One of these things is not like the other......one of these things does not belong..................."

Yes I went on to the Moog site and uploaded the latest software into my Sub Phatty. No use. Yes I read the manual played with all the send/receive settings etc... Same problem occurs and same problem does not occur in all my other gear from 1983 on to current. So basically I finally have the sound I like ( Moog Sub Phatty ) but I can't control it properly because Moog's MIDI is not sorted out properly.

I REALLY want to purchase a Moog Voyager RME, but now I'm hesitant to drop $2,500 on a piece if it behaves like the Sub Phatty- basically a doorstop when receiving patch change data.

Any ideas? Anyone else run into this same problem? Why is my Sub Phatty the only piece that exhibits this behavior but I can use my Kawai K3m or my Roland JV1080 and it works just fine? Man I'm bummed.

Hi mountain_77,

It would be useful to see the exact MIDI data that's being sent to the Sub 37.

Can you use MIDI Monitor (Mac) or MidiOx (PC) to record the MIDI data that's causing the trouble?

That would be a most important clue as to what's going on.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah like I said, I don't have this rig hooked up to a computer and to be honest I'm on a computer all day at work so I don't use the computer at all in my music. I took the Sub Phatty to work once to my office to download the latest firmware via USB and that did nothing.

I've read the Phatty manual thoroughly, tried experimenting with the different send/receive modes etc.. same result.

What I do know is I've tried hooking up the controller to everything from a Studio Electronics ATC, to 80s japanese synths to a Swedish Nord Lead. A variety of synths from a variety of time periods, from a variety of countries even, each with different Midi spec. They all behave the same. The only one that doesn't behave like this is my Moog Sub Phatty.

Regardless of what Midi messages are jamming up the phatty, it shouldn't behave this way and there's no way to fix it. I'm not a novice with MIDI. When i hit a patch change button on my controller, when hooked up to all other synths I own, they are dead silent until I play a note. Not the Sub Phatty. As soon as I hit a patch select button on my controller, it sounds just like a loud sinewave noise with the VCA release on 10. It basically just locks up while emitting sound. Even if I go over to the Sub Phatty after it starts emitting this horrible sound on lock up, and press a few patch change buttons on the Sub Phatty, it takes it a minute to recover. The VCA still seems stuck for a minute. Sometimes I have to power the Sub Phatty down all the way when this happens. Looks like I'm going to return my unit. I bought a hard case for it and everything- all ready to have it for years and years but nope-not gonna happen.

Moog Music- I hope you're reading this:

Makes me wonder, does Moog even test these things before they ship them? Don't they hook them up to various things and try various use case scenarios to see how they behave before shipping them? Like hooking it up in simple configuration like I used it in? 2 synths, one controller, no daisy chaining even, instrument 1 on channel 1, instrument 2 on channel 2. Simple test. I would love to drop $2,500 on a Voyager RME but if it is going to react the same way, I'm hesitant to do so.

I want to champion Moog so badly. I grew up with the Moog sound- Jan Hammer, old SFF records, Happy the Man, Don Airey and Ozzy etc...I grew up with friends Model D's and Taurus 1's around. I love the Moog sound but every time I go the Moog direction in modern times, it ends up biting back. I guess we were spoiled with growing up on 70's and 80's Japanese synths that had superior mechanical design and software design. Good old 80's Japan and Total Quality Management in manufacturing.

It seems quality control at Moog is really lacking.
I bought a Moog Voyager in 2004 brand new. The mod wheels rubbed the metal chassis sides of the mod/pitch wheel housings.
That's poor quality control and poor mechanical engineering design. I bought a Sub Phatty and the MIDI doesn't work right. That's poor software engineering and again poor quality control. I went the other day to look at a Sub 37 at Guitar Center. The blue light from the screen could be seen bleeding it's way into other places in the front panel close to the display that also had holes. That's poor- no HORRIBLE mechanical engineering design and poor quality control. On a DX7II or a D50 or a M1, you didn't see the light from the screen anywhere but the screen. You didn't see it creeping up through other holes where buttons were close to the display. That's just a perfect example.

I don't know what's going on over there at Moog. Why can't I just drop a few thousand with you guys,give you a loyal customer, buy products from them and have them work, walk away smiling and be happy just like I could with any other manufacturer? I'd love to tell everyone I know how well Moog products work for me and how they are the only brand I'd consider but I sadly can't waive that flag. Why? Because they have always let me down. I have to waive the 80's Japanese flag high instead because it's the only one worth waiving for gigging musicians. All faith in Moog is lost for me. I sadly have to scratch them off my list of gear to buy if I want reliable, roadworthy gear that's going to behave like it's supposed to. What a drag.

Now I guess now I finally realize and know why a guy like Jens Johansson in 2015 is gigging in this day and age still using a Yamaha DX7IIFD to control a Roland JV1080 through a bunch of guitar pedals for his lead sounds. Wish I could go analog and avoid the aliasing on pitchbend thing with romplers but Moog has not proven reliable to me so we all make sacrifices.

Mountain_77 wrote:Regardless of what MIDI messages are jamming up the phatty, it shouldn't behave this way and there's no way to fix it...Looks like I'm going to return my unit.

Or... we find out the particular combination of MIDI messages that's causing the trouble and they create a firmware fix for it.