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Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:43 am
by Bald Eagle
In one respect I'm a bit glad it was discontinued. It's a very expensive piece of gear I was considering and now it's off the table for me. It was a classic and a great box but there really are a lot of alternatives that's are arguably better and offer more functionality, hopefully Moog will step up to the challenge to the changing shape of things and come out with something that will knock the socks off All the others.
They killed with the Sub 37 .. Now let's see the new side of the pedals, FX, poly synths, etc.
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 2:15 pm
by meterman
These things are disappearing quick there are only 3 left on ebay, for $850 and up. Glad I got one when I did!
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 7:52 pm
by c7sus
Just scored MF-104MSD #006 from a dealer in NJ. No doubt one of the last in captivity. Dealer said he was told no more MF-104M's are coming.
Analog Haven said they sold their last SD this afternoon and have two 104M's left in stock; sold two to a customer yesterday.
Act fast if you want one!
LunchBox Audio near Seattle has at least one 104M on their webpage.
Humbucker sold their last stock yesterday.
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 4:10 pm
by Vsyevolod
hieronymous wrote:_DemonDan_ wrote:hieronymous wrote:I have a question that is probably stupid but that's never stopped me - why can't more bucket brigade chips be manufactured?
They can. But, since their primary application is for delaying audio while corrupting it in a pleasing way, it is not useful for the vast majority of modern consumer and commercial electronic devices. So, the price to make them is not offset by massive volume.
Thanks! I guess I should have figured that it wasn't cost-effective, even cost-prohibitive. Maybe some analog-loving billionaire would be willing to fund such a project?
And maybe I shouldn't have asked at all - it was more romantic having a vision of some mystical element that no longer exists or something like that...
It's not that it's cost prohibitive to make them, it's that the manufacturing is decades evolved and the machines that used to make the old BBD chips are no longer in use or production. So that means that it's cost prohibitive to make the machines that make the chips that would be cheap if manufactured by the trillions but would now take trillions of dollars just to make a couple thousand or so. See how easy that is to understand?
Stephen
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Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:00 pm
by nuno
Vsyevolod wrote:
It's not that it's cost prohibitive to make them, it's that the manufacturing is decades evolved and the machines that used to make the old BBD chips are no longer in use or production. So that means that it's cost prohibitive to make the machines that make the chips that would be cheap if manufactured by the trillions but would now take trillions of dollars just to make a couple thousand or so. See how easy that is to understand?
Stephen
.
Coolaudio is still making BBD chips, if I'm not mistaken. And Maxon developed their own chip when Panasonic stopped production of BBDs. Not all is lost on that front.
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 3:47 am
by Vsyevolod
Funny, a friend of mine just posted this a few days ago on another forum...
At least several problems in making the early IC chips. First, a fabrication plant for ANY IC design is a very expensive operation, in the billions. Second, as time has gone by, newer generations of IC design have come along every few years (this is largely related to making the internal components and wiring smaller and smaller, as well as lower power and lower voltage).
When the Fabrication companies decide to move to a newer generation of tooling, they don't just change some of the small parts in the plant - it is more a matter of ripping out the old stuff completely and replacing it with the new (which also means that they need to keep the plant running near full capacity while the particular generation is in effect to attempt to amortize the facility). The old stuff is generally not kept, but is scrapped. There are a number of reasons for this, the largest being that the company has no intent of making more of the old designs in the future.
Add to that the fact that most all of the older generations of ICs were internally made using lead, which is not unusable because of legal rulings.
Stephen
.
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 8:33 am
by nuno
Vsyevolod wrote:Funny, a friend of mine just posted this a few days ago on another forum...
[...]
Stephen
.
Funny how that doesn't change the fact that both Maxon and Coolaudio are still in running their own fabrication.
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:42 am
by Gladmarr
I hadn't thought of the lead process used to make BBD chips as a factor before. I wonder if Moog gets an exemption for them since they're a vintage chips or if they get new chips and convinced the chip maker to switch over to a lead-free process.
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 11:40 am
by nuno
Moog is using NOS chips. Maybe the ICs currently in production don't sound as good, or maybe it it's the vintage scarcity fairy dust that helps to sell the Moog and EHX pedals.
Gladmarr wrote:I hadn't thought of the lead process used to make BBD chips as a factor before. I wonder if Moog gets an exemption for them since they're a vintage chips or if they get new chips and convinced the chip maker to switch over to a lead-free process.
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 11:44 am
by _DemonDan_
nuno wrote:or maybe it it's the vintage scarcity fairy dust that helps to sell the Moog and EHX pedals.
Yes, you've nailed it!
They've stopped selling MF-104Ms so that they can sell more MF-104Ms.
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 1:01 pm
by nuno
_DemonDan_ wrote:nuno wrote:or maybe it it's the vintage scarcity fairy dust that helps to sell the Moog and EHX pedals.
Yes, you've nailed it!
They've stopped selling MF-104Ms so that they can sell more MF-104Ms.
That's not what I meant. Your brilliant sarcasm misses the point.
The point here was that vintage BBD scarcity helps to sell these things. Is that a taboo of some sort? Also it's something you should know, as you've helped to market these things, working for Sweetwater.
And they still have the minifooger delay, also based on vintage discontinued BBD chips.
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 1:35 pm
by _DemonDan_
nuno wrote:Your brilliant sarcasm misses the point.
I know, I was just having a larf.
It was one of those miraculous finds of enough of the NOS (new, old stock) chips that allowed the making of a limited run of 104s.
And then there's the requirement of putting aside enough chips for repairs.
The profoundly powerful parameter pushing on the MF-104M means that you can't just swap in any old BBD chip without a serious reworking of the circuit board (if it's even possible).
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 2:20 pm
by paramnesia
Minifooger Delay uses a modern BBD still being manufactured, not the same as the MF-104m.
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 5:01 pm
by bichuelo
nuno wrote:
And they still have the minifooger delay, also based on vintage discontinued BBD chips.
All other foogers which use BBDs use models different from the one in the MF104M
Re: MF-104M Discontinued?
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:42 pm
by nuno
paramnesia wrote:Minifooger Delay uses a modern BBD still being manufactured, not the same as the MF-104m.
Was somehow convinced that it was a vintage chip.
bichuelo wrote:nuno wrote:
And they still have the minifooger delay, also based on vintage discontinued BBD chips.
All other foogers which use BBDs use models different from the one in the MF104M
That I am aware of.