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The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:34 am
by Tuskerfort
In our forum we've all seen posts asking about three perceived limitations of the Phatties,

1 - they don't respond to aftertouch
2 - there is only one modulation buss
3 - they have no noise generator in the audio path

In this post, I’ll address these concerns with a method which will cost you only an audio cable or two. Most people correctly read that a Phatty has only one modulation bus, but we have "additional modulation busses" lying around if we have other synths. :wink:

Let me explain. Currently my Slim Phatty is providing me vibrato with aftertouch, but it also does many other things, based on whether I use a slider, ribbon or whatever. First of all, most parameters in a Phatty are already pre-mapped to midi, so if you can buss midi (e.g. with a software midi processor) you can route aftertouch (or any CC you like) to any of several dozen destinations with midi. I do some of this MIDI control, but the particular technique I am outlining in this post relies on the output audio of whatever synth you have controlling a Slim Phatty. Little Phatty users can utilize similar approaches by using the Moog's midi out to control a tone generator (you'll get more mod sources but not aftertouch), or alternatively, using a synth with aftertouch as controller and modulation source.

I am patching an auxiliary audio out from my main (S90ES) rompler synth into the pitch CV of the Phatty. By routing a low frequency sine/tri wave to pitch (volume of wave is assigned to aftertouch inside the rompler, make sure pitch does not track the keyboard, you’ll need to lower the pitch by 3-4 octaves into LFO territory to taste) you have vibrato on aftertouch. (Vibrato is what synthesists most commonly use aftertouch for.) If you send audio rate waves you have as thick an oscillator FM as you might desire. If you use the envelope in the rompler, you can have FM on the attack (for example) and have it decay out beautifully. Or you can crossfade it in when you need it with a slider, or even aftertouch. Most of the tricks we use modular systems for are available on the Slim if we think in terms of control signals. Currently, I have:

a - low frequency sine for vibrato,
b - audio rate signals for FM, and
c - a little white noise going into the Slim's Pitch CV. (The white noise adds a little jitter, to make the Slim's oscillators sound more vintage when that is needed.)

The latter two are activated by sliders and the former by aftertouch. This costs me three out of four tones in my rompler and I still have one more tone available in a single rompler patch.

I can hear someone asking, “Are audio voltages compatible with Pitch CV?” You’ll need to test the output voltages on whatever gear you are using, since you don't want to overload the Pitch CV. I did. The S90ES appears to send about +-1 volt compared to the Phatty CV limit of +-5 volts. This is more than adequate for most musical modulations.

So far, that's just the pitch CV in, being treated to three modulation sources. Similarly, you could use the filter and volume CVs and send a number of mod sources into them. I don’t. To keep things simple in a live situation, I use a footpedal for the filter CV and do most modulation tricks with the pitch CV.

The rompler does all the bussing (it may think it is sending audio, but it is actually sending control signals to the Phatty) for you. The engineers at Moog have designed beautiful instruments. All it takes for us to expand them is a control signal perspective.

Hoping this helps you enjoy your Phatty. Let us know if these ideas are helpful to you and if you use these or similar techniques,

Jerry


PS: Three mod sources is pretty rich for the pitch CV. If you are wondering what can be done with a fourth tone (I did) ... try sending it into the external audio in where it can serve as ...

a) a white noise generator,
b) a brief attack transient or
c) a third oscillator.

White noise from any source functions remarkably well when sent through the Moog ladder. :D

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:24 pm
by stiiiiiiive
Thanks for sharing, Jerry!

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:30 am
by psavolai
Thanks Jerry,

Me too, I'm doing very similar things with my slim phatty by using Nord Modular as the outboard oscillator and mod source.

This versatility makes the slimmie one of the nicest pieces of equipment that I have currently.
Of course it would be nice to own the top of the line Voyager , but the slimmie isn't too bad when using these external enchancements.

Actually I stopped craving for more synths once I got my Slim Phatty package from Moog Music.
I currently have:
- DSI Mopho+tetra = 5 voice (mostly analog) polysynth with external audio in
- Use Audio Plugiator, which is as nice emulation of moog and arp, but polyphonic
- Nord Micro Modular (which I now use as the external vco and lfo for slim)
- Alesis nanopiano
- Yamaha SS-30 (a string machine)
- Roland SH2000 (a preset mono synth with moog copy filter) , I modded mine so I have more freedom when tweaking presets
- a bunch of softsynths in pro tools

To me that's pretty much it.

I don't have to own every piece of hardware ever made, just enough to make my stuff work.
I have owned so many different (cheap) synths over the years but none of them has delivered like the Slim Phatty does.
So , surprisingly I find myself in the situation where I don't have to buy more synths .

.. just don't tell Moog Music that or they will cancel the Phatty line of devices :wink:

petri.

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:35 am
by Tuskerfort
Stiiiiiive! you are welcome. :)

Petri, it's interesting that you are using the NM. Longtime user, I took the opposite route and gave up the Nord after getting the Phatty. I can see how the Nord would be a very good mate for the Phatty ... with the multiple outs in the Nord and the crossfade options, you can engage all three CV inputs in the Phatty very easily.

If the Nord could send out direct current, that would make it complete and you could use it's Envelopes as well as LFOs and Oscillators for modulation. Some Roland romplers have a DC offset waveform, but I don't think the DC makes it past the D/A convertors. I may be wrong.

The easiest path to complete digital control of the Phatty might be through a Direct Coupled interface like MOTU ...

http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/siwacompatibility.html

But, just running a synth into the Phatty's CV inputs gets us 80% of the way there for 5% of the complexity. :D

True, the Phatty makes a lot of more complex gear unnecessary, but why do I have this sudden longing for six Phatty's? :wink:

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:50 am
by fuzulu
Hey Jerry ,

This is a great post , very interesting , going to try all this stuff immediately .

Just want to know , 1) what will happen if I overload my Pitch CV ? (will it damage my gear)
2) how do I know what signal won't overload it ? (how do i measure it)
3) can I use an oscillator/lfo from a virus or a terta ?
4) what kind of cable to use ? (are the normal phono ones okay?)


Thanks :)

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:18 pm
by Voltor07
fuzulu wrote:Hey Jerry ,

This is a great post , very interesting , going to try all this stuff immediately .

Just want to know , 1) what will happen if I overload my Pitch CV ? (will it damage my gear)
Yes, it can. The Phatty and Voyager use the 0-5V standard. Usng gear that puts out 10-12V will damage it. Voltage can be measured by using a voltmeter on the tip and sleeve of a 1/4" jack going out of the voltage source.
fuzulu wrote: 2) how do I know what signal won't overload it ?
If you have a signal 5V or less, you will be fine.
fuzulu wrote: 3) can I use an oscillator/lfo from a virus or a terta ?
If those LFO's and osc's have outputs, then yes, you can use them. If they put out more than 5V, you will need an attenuator to tone the voltage down.
fuzulu wrote: 4) what kind of cable to use ? (are the normal phono ones okay?)
Any cable works for CV. They don't need to be low noise, or gold plated, or anything fancy. As long as the plugs match the jacks, you'll be fine. :)

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:19 am
by fuzulu
thanks very much for your answers , I think I'm going to wait for my freq box before I experiment with the cv inputs , cause I don't have the stuff to measure it and I don't want to take the risk of damaging the phatty :D

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:22 am
by fuzulu
by the way can you guys post some pointers on how you would use the silent way kind of stuff , like how do you route them from your sound card to your cv inputs . I'm using an ultralite and fireface 400 so if you could please make it relative to those , and do you measure the voltage of that too ? or do we know it already somehow ? Thanks :)

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:52 am
by Sir Nose
Not sure of your interface, but not all work with silent way. It must be DC coupled to send proper CV.

AC audio signal can be used for CV, but experimentation is need to find ranges and effect.

Edit: it is now possible to use AC coupled interfaces with some work.
http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/siwaacencoder.html

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:09 pm
by Voltor07
Teressa wrote:This is a great post, Tuskerfort, thanks for that.
i'm actually quite as curious as is Fuzulu: how do I know what signal won't overload it ?? Are you sure 5V will be fine?
I'm actually completely childish when it comes to this. Thanks for the post!
Yes, 5V is acceptable.

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:21 am
by Frodaka
This is a great post, Tuskerfort, thanks for that.i'm actually quite as curious as is Fuzulu: how do I know what signal won't overload it ?? Are you sure 5V will be fine? I'm actually completely childish when it comes to this. Thanks for the post!

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:01 pm
by Tuskerfort
The inputs are rated to +-5V. If you are handy with a voltmeter, you can test the output of whatever synth you are using.

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:28 pm
by jimmyklane
First Post for a first time Moog owner... Slim Phatty exceeding all of my hopes, as the direct comparison to Arturia/GForce minimoog vst (with 3rd osc as LFO) shows the real quality of this superb instrument!

Here's my question: in an audio amplifier, even gross overload is often current limited by the available power supply voltage...yes, you CAN fry an input by (for example) putting a speaker output into a mic/line input with out a DI/pad....sometimes an output with a severe impedance mismatch... but what is going to happen if I put 7, 8, 10, 12 volts into this units CV inputs (not on purpose, but some synths outputs are very hot!)? just clipped CV to +/- 5V, or am i REALLY putting the phatty at risk?

I have a great understanding of electronics, but I've never used a real modular, or even CV for that matter, as all of my analogs are polysynths, and I've yet to own one with CV inputs!

somebody who actually knows the answer, please advise!

-Jim

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:41 am
by Set
Hey jimmy,

I suggest to have a look a this thread, kind of similar question.

http://forum.moogmusic.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16136

Re: The Phatties: A technique to add modulation “busses”

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:30 am
by jimmyklane
Set, thanks for that link! Although it doesn't tell me about the continuous cv and only the triggered cv (pitch/filter VS Gate) what I'm getting out of where you sent me is that the CV inputs can theoretically take a blue-moon hit up to the supply rails (or the specs of the clamp they have installed on the inputs) but for normal and reliable usage, I want to keep it at spec or barely over....measuring if need be along the way.
Damn, I was hoping that I could plug pretty much anything under a power amp into it and the worst I'd get is squared-off CV....

Thanks again
Jim