Moog Music Forum

Jon,

I listened to a few of your tracks. I want to listen to more tommorow. Almost time for sleep for me right now but I like what I hear, again, old school EM. Clearly you are getting some nice stuff from a modular and I do agree that it affords a lot of creativity but more than anything else I want to make music. I can't get all that bogged down in technical stuff. I can see a modular being supplemental to what I have. In fact, A Voyager would nicely round out my soft synths and Korg M3 and I think along with a Macbook, that would be a perfect system for me. Not for everyone, for me. But my musical creations always change over time so I suppose a full blown modular might make more sense at some time.

I also know what its like with many things competing with music. I love music and love to make it. I wish I also had more time but I value the time I have and the equipment I have right now to make it. What comes in the future I am still working on.

Lux_Seeker wrote:
Mark, this is good old school EM. I really liked it. How much of this is the Voyager. I am very intested in the bell like sounds around the middle of the track. The percurssive sounds are also very interesting.

I am also wondering what you are using for a delay?

This is what I mean about the Voyager. It's capable of some really interesting sounds. Perhaps not as flexible as a full blown modular but great sounds.

There is also a low machine drone after the percussive section in the middle. Voyager? If so then outstanding. One of the type of sounds I want is a machine like drone like this. It's part of a whole industrial Babylon theme I want to use for background tracks for part of a CD.

After the drone you have some plucked string like sounds that sound Buchla like to me. Vactrol based? Whatever they are, again, outstanding.

Then the drone changes. Very complex, beautiful.

The flute like sound - Voyager? - again, great sound.

Then there is a sawtooth sound that sound flute like - again, great sound

Complex rhythmic section towards the end - that has to be a Voyager - I don't know of anything else that sounds like that - boldly electronic, phat but not obese, lively and beautiful.

Very impressive work which proves my point that a Voyager can create incredible sounds. How much of this work was a Voyager? If this is mostly Voyager then its a better add for Voyager than the stuff on Moog's site. A lot better.

Thanks for the compliments.

For delay I use a Line 6 Echopro. Reverb is a Lexicon MPX550. Those are my only FX.

The opening is of course Voyager with an Electribe ESX1. That is Reaktor after the percussive sounds in the middle about 19 minutes in. The lead over it around 20 minutes in is Voyager. The low drone @ 22:30 is Voyager. The gongs in the piece (@ 15:30) are Voyager and are supplemented with some mangled Voyager gongs on Ableton. The flute is Absynth. I wish I created the patch, but I didn't. Sometimes patches of acoustic instruments are so good such as pianos and flutes, that there is no need for me to improve or ignore them. The saw sound is Voyager. Most of the percussion/rhythm tracks are created on an Electribe ESX1. They are supplemented with some RM1X rhythms at times. I love the ESX1. You can create some really sick sounds with it. In the end I'm playing an RM1X like a keyboard. At the very end I add the ESX1 and Voyager.

This is the first set I have used beat boxes. In the past I have usually used a Waldorf Q or XT, and my rhythms were usually created on Reaktor. This time most beats were the ESX1 and RM1X, because I wanted to try something a little different this time.

This set also had a couple of sounds loops created on Voyager and triggered via Ableton: mostly sweeps and FX like the ocean.

I try and travel light when performing live. I never leave my equipt. in the car overnight: it comes into the motel with me, so traveling with minimum equipt. is essential. Even though I own most of the Foogers as well as a Phatty, I leave them at home. I compose my sets with the equipt. that I know I'll be using on stage.

I was interested in the KARMA at one point. I wish they'd release the KARMA (not the synth itself just it's 'brains') as a plug-in.

Lux_Seeker wrote:Regarding Cortini:

I like the post here. One thing however I do notice about modular users is that they all seem to rely on a sequencer.

I can't speak for Cortini but in my experience that's actually not entirely true. A lot of people I know (including myself) don't really use sequencers but rather rely on things like LFOs to control timing and in some cases pitch. For example you could take a square wave LFO and send it through a voltage/trigger inverter and use it to fire two envelopes at opposite times. Sending LFOs through comparators and logic modules are also good sources of rhythmic material and allow for more complex rhythms and syncopations. LFOs (or better yet a random clock signals) can be run through a quantizer in order to generate pitch voltages. For really simple pitch changes an attenuated LFO works well too. There are options... This dance track is the first real sequenced thing I've done with my modular.

As far as creating complex circuits for what computers can generate more easily...well why buy a Voyager. Just use software.

To be honest I'm quite impressed with Mark's use of the Voyager as well.

Lux_Seeker wrote:Jon,

I listened to a few of your tracks.

How'd that happen they're supposed to be hidden? Hmmmm...

My mistake. Those tracks you posted were Cortini's right. Can you post some of your own?

jon_kull wrote:As far as creating complex circuits for what computers can generate more easily...well why buy a Voyager. Just use software.

Aha! That indeed is the question, why not just use software. I have a Korg M3. It's a computer and what it does when I flip the switch is run a very complex program which has access to a large sample library. I love it.

Frankly, I am not one to see myself either in the analogue or digital camp or for that matter the semi modular or modular camp. Each are their own animals.

I don't believe that right now that synthesizers like the Access Virus, while claiming to emulate anlogue circutry, really does that. It helps at time working with synths to have a background in mathematics so I can often understand what is going on "under the hood". Digital circuts have to break time up into descrete time periods. If they do this quick enough (i.e. a high enough sampling rate) then the designers of these circuts beleive that they have succesfully created a model of an analogue circut.

But here is the problem. The analogue circults are not models. It's like looking at the models they use in movies that appear to be the real thing. They work fine in the limited context in which they are used but only that.

So I have a very strong belief that the reason a Voyager sounds good and different than a analogue emulator is that its the real thing.

That being said, I have not problem whatsover with creating hybrids of digital and analogue. Buchla has done a great job of this although at a price range that makes theiir modules inaccessible to most including myself. Believe me, a Voyager will take a big chunk out of my budget but I can afford one. A 200e would put me in debt for several years.

However, the possiblity of combining digtal and analogue is uncharted and I beleive fruitful territory. The trick is not to make the mistake of the emulators but to use digital control of analogue circuits. Case and point the new Sequencial Circuits Prophet. In fact, what made the original Prophet such an innovation is that you could save presets. Well, that and being polyphonic but certainly the combining of digital and analogue has been very effective for Sequencial Circuits and for that matter Moog in both the Voyager and now the new MIDI Murf. In fact, there is a major discussion on just this topic on the fooger board.

A dream system for me would be one in which you buy a module and all the signal flow is analogue but completly controlled by a computer much like Reaktor. Once you buy a module it is identified and included as a software component. No patch cords. I would keep the knobs cut use a capture system so that presets could be saved.

I would do all sequencing, gates/triggers in the digital realm including random voltages (which would be converted ot a CV).

The whole idea here is that random voltages, sample and hold, logic circuts, ect are all descrete and therefore, can be perfectly modellied in the digital realm and actually, done a lot beter with much more flexiblity. But oscillators, filters I would keep in the anlaogue realm as well as signal flow. LFOs if they are sub audio could be done in the analogue realm and VCAs.

Anyway, I did not mean to be so long winded but that my take on analogue and digital and one of the reasons that a musician/composer who has learned sythsesis in the digital realm (myself) is now interested in analogue circuits. I have my feet firmly planted in both worlds and I intend to try to blend what is best in both worlds together if the tools pemit.

P.S.

I also love the idea of MOTU's volta. It's not taking the singal flow out of the anlogue world but again, allowing for digital control. A perfect example fo an effective blend of the two worlds.

Mark, thanks for the great response. I found your description fascinating. First, I see you use Reaktor. So do I. I must admit that while I love the whole idea of Reaktor, I have not built my own synths but I love the idea of having access to such a wide variety of synths and effects that otherwise, would not have been put on the commecial market do to development expense and limited market. Reaktor makes the development of these synths/effects much less time consuming. I do find Reaktor a great source for ambient material expecially textures. I have been wanting to include it more in my music.

I also see that you use Ableton for triggering events. It's great for that which is why I use it. I first used Cubebase which is a very traditional model of music production (i.e. studio mixer) but Ableton works better with the way I think of music and has some pretty powerful tools that are not in Cubebase.

My studio right now is split in two locations. Eventually, I want all my stuff to be at least semi mobile which is why I want a Macbook. I have an aging desktop but it can't be easily moved. For that matter nor can the M3 I have (believe me - the 88 key weighs a ton).

So not having my desktop there, I have an Eventide Ecclipse which gives me some nice reverbs not to mention a lot of ptich shifting stuff and MIDI control over almost all parameters.

What I glean from your setup is that you seem to, much like myself, think musicallly. I have to admit that when I first started composing music I thought technically. I wanted the most complex synths and thought the more complex, the better the music. I have matured beyond that. I do want to add more structure to my music and I see that in yours. Much of what I read about composition tells me that this makes for great music.

So when it comes to modulars, ok, perhaps some day but a Voyager and perhaps the expansion modules will suit me well right now. The Voyager fits into what I do musically and if I think of some reason other than the technical specs of why I can use a modular, I will do that.

I have begun to believe that tecnical specs are having a detrimental effect on my music or my ability to make it. I can't get bogged down in this. Everyone tells me that modulars are fun and flexible. I suppose they are but can I make good music with them. In the end, that is what matters to me.

Lux_Seeker wrote:Frankly, I am not one to see myself either in the analogue or digital camp or for that matter the semi modular or modular camp. Each are their own animals.

I'm all analog at this point. I'd love to pick up another Yamaha FS1R. That's one synth I never should have parted with. It's a very beautiful sounding digital synth. Too bad other people have caught on. They used to sell for $200 two years ago. Now they go for $800 - $1000.

Lux_Seeker wrote:I don't believe that right now that synthesizers like the Access Virus, while claiming to emulate anlogue circutry, really does that.

So I have a very strong belief that the reason a Voyager sounds good and different than a analogue emulator is that its the real thing.

I had a Virus Ti and thought it was a nice sounding synth. I liked the wavetables and formant stuff. I found that it sounded wonderful on it's own but tended to get lost when used alongside my Andromeda and Voyager. The OS (at the time) was still buggy though and I couldn't deal with the glitches so I sold it.

Lux_Seeker wrote:A dream system for me would be one in which you buy a module and all the signal flow is analogue but completly controlled by a computer much like Reaktor. Once you buy a module it is identified and included as a software component. No patch cords. I would keep the knobs cut use a capture system so that presets could be saved.

Not exactly the same but the Buchla does have patch memory as an option...which is so strange to me. You can store your patches on a memory card and then play back saved presets without using cables.

Lux_Seeker wrote:I would do all sequencing, gates/triggers in the digital realm including random voltages (which would be converted ot a CV)..

And you could do it that way if you wanted to. Some people prefer to do it all with analog. I don't think either one is necessarily better than the other...just different ways of achieving an end result.

Lux_Seeker wrote:I also love the idea of MOTU's volta. It's not taking the singal flow out of the anlogue world but again, allowing for digital control. A perfect example fo an effective blend of the two worlds.

Yeah, I was pretty excited about Volta. I ended up with Silent Way instead because it's $150 cheaper and I don't sequence my modular that often. One of the disadvantages to Volta though is that certain audio interfaces can only output a certain amount of voltage so you end up with limitations. For example with my MOTU Ultralite I only get a 3 octave range on my VCOs.

Lux_Seeker wrote:Everyone tells me that modulars are fun and flexible. I suppose they are but can I make good music with them.

If you wanted to...why not? It's just a tool. You get out of it what you put into it just like any other instrument. If you couldn't make music on a modular using the same basic VCO-VCF-VCA signal path found in any synth...how will you be able to make it with a Voyager? Or was that a rhetorical question?

I guess what I don't understand (and I'm not directing this specifically at you more at people's general perception) is the mindset that modulars are some kind of super-complex magic glitch boxes that are impossible to use for anything 'musical' (which is subjective anyway). The beauty of modular synthesis is that YOU control how complex or simple your synth is. If you look at the patches I posted along with my dance track you'll see all I used was a single VCO, a single VCF, a single VCA, a single LFO and a single envelope. They don't have to be complicated.

jon_kull wrote: I guess what I don't understand (and I'm not directing this specifically at you more at people's general perception) is the mindset that modulars are some kind of super-complex magic glitch boxes that are impossible to use for anything 'musical' (which is subjective anyway). The beauty of modular synthesis is that YOU control how complex or simple your synth is. If you look at the patches I posted along with my dance track you'll see all I used was a single VCO, a single VCF, a single VCA, a single LFO and a single envelope. They don't have to be complicated.

well said. i think the biggest hurdle is just that it takes some skill to even get to a point where a given person will be able to hook up a modular for a simple 1vco/vcf/vca set-up, whereas most synths these days (even the semimodular ones) are plug and play. Turn it on, press a key, instant feedback. With a modular, it's just not that simple.

The whole stereotype of glitchy modular noise comes from the fact that most of the vids you see on youtube are from more seasoned modular enthusiasts who have dumped thousands into their impressive set-ups and want to show what they are capable of. You don't tend to see as many people showing their 1 vco set-up and playing it.

Each to their own I guess, with every set-up there are pros and cons. pre-wired analog kbs and semi-modulars spit out notes pretty much right away and offer things like patch storage at the cost of less functionality. Modulars take longer to get online, but can take you places prefabs and semis won't.

Jon:

It's really a matter of how I make music. Because I can easily grasp the technical details of modulars and other synthesizers I had a tendency to get bogged down in that. I tended to believe the more complex the better. I don't think that anymore and I tend to think deeper not more complex now. Sometimes, its a relatively simple idea that is easy to do technically that can be the most effective.

Do you know Pink Floyd at all? Listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZFrobmC7fs

Listen around 1:42 to "sheep". There is a simple sequence of sounds here it works really well. The sound of the vocal is crossfaded into the sound of the Minimoog which is then modulated. Then the guitar is brought in and modulated, slowly fades out and then the organ swells in. I think its one of the most effective sequences of sound I have heard but its not complex. It's probably just a sawtooth on the Minimoog with an LFO modulating in using the mod wheel. The guitar is probably modulated with a phaser, probably just a stomp box. I know that Gilmour's rig at that time was pretty simple.

The organ is most likey a Hammond B3 with Leslie cabinet. Again, a classic organ with simple idea. A simple additive synthesizer in a sense and who would have thought that if you used horns for sound and spun them they would sound so good especially when they are changing speed. Nothing better sonically than spinning speakers. I dream of getting a leslie cabinet.

I am sure that there was some carefully timing of all the modulators but my point is that simple often works very well and can create an effect that is quite stunning.

A modular offers more flexiblity yes and I have to admit that some of the modules out there really make me want a modular and I suppose in time, when I have a muscial application I will built from a small cabinet with a few modules but right now, I like the idea of a MIDI controlled analogue with a full set of oscillators, filters and envelopes the looks and sound beautiful.

Even the FM may be limited but I have FM8 and frankly, I like the idea of doing FM in the digital realm because I think it belongs there case and point the DX-7 is a digital synth.

I can nicely integrate a Voyager with my M3 (nice string, pads, electric pianos, pianos and even a celeste and other little samples to season a mix with and all can be triggered from pads or used to pepper a KARMA sequence (it's digital but the M3 is a beautfiul digital beast - ugly visually and very heavy but the look grows on me over time. musically it's really beautiful. Not like analogue, sweet and soft but just right to mix analogue with. Put an voyager on top and laptop running Ableton Live, my foogers (I love my foogers), my Eventide Eclipse (just about all the parameters can be MIDI controlled) and I will have a powerhouse blend of digital and analogue all controlled by MIDI and with patch bay so its modular (Aha!!, the line just got blurred a bit right!).

Anyway, thats my vision. A little latter I can add soft synths back and I can also sample them and put them on the M3. Pink Floyd used a Kurzweil K2000 to put all their analogue samples in.

I am not selling either digital or analogue here but suggesting that they can work beautifully together. I can see it now, the dark moog wood and electric blue backlight against the ugly white plastic of the M3. Hmm, perhaps I can find a way to dull the plastic sheen to avoid the clash. Perhaps I can even put some real wood on it. Sonically, there should be no clash. M3 and Voyager, perfect together.

I like wood! It's one of the minor reasons I like Moog stuff. Not a good reason to buy from Moog but nice icing on the cake. I wish Korg used wood instead of plastic.

Lux_Seeker wrote:Do you know Pink Floyd at all? Listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZFrobmC7fs

Listen around 1:42 to "sheep". There is a simple sequence of sounds here it works really well. The sound of the vocal is crossfaded into the sound of the Minimoog which is then modulated. Then the guitar is brought in and modulated, slowly fades out and then the organ swells in. I think its one of the most effective sequences of sound I have heard but its not complex

Of course I know Pink Floyd. I was just listening to Shine On You Crazy Diamond actually. Yes, that's a very nicely done sequence of sounds.

Lux_Seeker wrote:A modular offers more flexiblity yes and I have to admit that some of the modules out there really make me want a modular and I suppose in time, when I have a muscial application I will built from a small cabinet with a few modules but right now, I like the idea of a MIDI controlled analogue with a full set of oscillators, filters and envelopes the looks and sound beautiful.

You knew what you wanted a couple pages ago. Despite my 'hard sell' I've really just been enjoying the conversation to be honest. This has been a different thread from what usually pops up here on the forum. Normally when someone posts here about wanting a Voyager everyone says "Yes, you do." While I think you'd be happy with either one (and since I own both) I figured I'd give the counter argument. We all have reasons for the choices we make and you've already thought this one through. If it suits your music and your workflow then go for it.

Lux_Seeker wrote:Even the FM may be limited but I have FM8 and frankly, I like the idea of doing FM in the digital realm because I think it belongs there case and point the DX-7 is a digital synth.

I like FM8 as well. If you like FM8 and the DX-7 you'd probably love the FS1R. I don't agree (big surprise) that FM belongs in the digital realm. Though digital probably does do it better.

Lux_Seeker wrote:I can nicely integrate a Voyager with my M3 (nice string, pads, electric pianos, pianos and even a celeste and other little samples to season a mix with and all can be triggered from pads or used to pepper a KARMA sequence (it's digital but the M3 is a beautfiul digital beast - ugly visually and very heavy but the look grows on me over time. musically it's really beautiful. Not like analogue, sweet and soft but just right to mix analogue with. Put an voyager on top and laptop running Ableton Live, my foogers (I love my foogers), my Eventide Eclipse (just about all the parameters can be MIDI controlled) and I will have a powerhouse blend of digital and analogue all controlled by MIDI and with patch bay so its modular (Aha!!, the line just got blurred a bit right!).

Sounds like you'll have a nice setup. It should keep you very busy. The M3 is a great keyboard. I've always wanted an Eventide. Maybe one day. For now I'm stuck with software. I may give Ableton a second look. I've been a Logic user for a few years but the more I read about Live the more I think it may be the better choice. Anyway...I'm sure you'll enjoy your Voyager. It's a beautifully crafted instrument and it sounds great.

Lux_Seeker wrote:I like wood! It's one of the minor reasons I like Moog stuff. Not a good reason to buy from Moog but nice icing on the cake. I wish Korg used wood instead of plastic.

I'm actually the same way. If I could afford it I'd do this to my Old School: http://www.synthwood.com/gallery/mathew ... erCase.jpg That's why I had a wood cabinet built for my modular. Oddly enough it ended up almost perfectly matching my Old School even though that wasn't what I had in mind when I picked out the stain.

Cheers!

That wood looks sweet. Mahogany? Beautiful grain.

You make a good argument for modulars Jon. I don't like any of the sounds I've heard from them, but if I could afford a new Buchla I'd definitely get one for the knob twiddling alone.

Since I've seen digital synths mentioned here a few times I'd like to add my two cents.

I owned a Yamaha DX27 and love FM synthesis because of it. The presets were awful but after digging deeper into the architecture I got some pretty incredible sounds. I made this in 1992: http://www.artistserver.com/m2/3611/188 ... /27716.mp3

I still own a Kurzweil K2000, it's my second. The algorithms shaper mods and filters are the best I've heard for making booming aggressive saws and squares. I'll probably never sell it because I can't get that exact sound with anything else I've used.

I used a Korg Triton for a few months and since they're similar to the KARMA I wanted to mention the sound always seemed to lack depth. It had a tinny thinness to even the largest sounds. It also sounded like it was trying to emulate tube compression, only without the warmth.

My Korg MS2000BR sounds thin too, I hardly use it anymore. Virtual analog will never compare to the real deal, but I think Access does an amazing job with their products. I hope to own a Virus one day.

Subtronik wrote:That wood looks sweet. Mahogany? Beautiful grain.

It's cocobolo from South America.

Subtronik wrote:I owned a Yamaha DX27 and love FM synthesis because of it. The presets were awful but after digging deeper into the architecture I got some pretty incredible sounds. I made this in 1992: http://www.artistserver.com/m2/3611/188 ... /27716.mp3

Nice drone. Yeah, FM is a cool synthesis method. I didn't 'get it' when I had my FS1R and now that I understand it a little better I wish I still had that synth.

Subtronik wrote:I still own a Kurzweil K2000, it's my second. The algorithms shaper mods and filters are the best I've heard for making booming aggressive saws and squares. I'll probably never sell it because I can't get that exact sound with anything else I've used.

I had a K2600RS for two years. I think Kurzweils are underrated. Too many people write them off as 'just a rompler' but they have a pretty powerful synthesis engine in them and KDFX is the nicest sounding built in effects I've ever heard in a synth. What I think is interesting is that the K2000 gets no credit for having VA-like capabilities long before the Nord and Virus came along.

Subtronik wrote:My Korg MS2000BR sounds thin too, I hardly use it anymore. Virtual analog will never compare to the real deal, but I think Access does an amazing job with their products. I hope to own a Virus eventually.

I really liked my Virus Ti but couldn't deal with the glitches, random drop-outs and resets. It was really well constructed and Access support was wonderful to deal with but I just wanted to make music. The OS was so damn buggy. I know the new ones are better so that's probably not an issue anymore. While it had a really nice sound I couldn't help thinking that I could get the same sound with software. Zebra and Vanguard are sort of kind of close.

Man.. now I'm jealous, I wish my Voyager had cocobolo. How'd you get that anyway? At first I thought it was photoshopped to enhance the coloring but now I see it's how it really looks.

jon_kull wrote:I really liked my Virus Ti but couldn't deal with the glitches, random drop-outs and resets. It was really well constructed and Access support was wonderful to deal with but I just wanted to make music. The OS was so damn buggy. I know the new ones are better so that's probably not an issue anymore. While it had a really nice sound I couldn't help thinking that I could get the same sound with software. Zebra and Vanguard are sort of kind of close.

That sucks. I read about those Virus Ti problems a few months ago. Such a beautiful machine should work better than that. I'll still eventually get one. Everyone says a Virus compliments a Voyager nicely.

You know your softsynths. Zebra is a monster. I found a great randomizer for Zerbra that easily makes bizarre and beautiful sounds: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=203929

If you try it and have any trouble getting it to work, let me know and I'll help. It's totally worth the trouble to hear it in action.

My favorite VSTi's btw are z3ta, zebra, vanguard, fabfilter twin2, minimonsta and audjoo helix.