Moog Music Forum

My studio system include a stereo PA with two subs per side each loaded with 18 inch EVs.

My T1s breathes fire through this system, I can measure the ritcher scale by the glassware that breaks. Looking forward to hearing the T3s through them.

mayidunk wrote:

metron wrote:

mayidunk wrote:The 8X10 can go down to an effective freq. of about 40Hz. If that's enough for your needs, then you're all set.

I think the 40 Hz spec they list for the 810 is misleading since at -10dB you aren't hearing much. The -3dB of 58 Hz is a better spec to represent the low end capability of the Ampeg 810.

Stick_Player wrote:But these cabinets do not really produce very low frequencies well. Even Ampeg rates the cabinet as: Frequency Response (-3dB): 58Hz-5kHz. And it drops to -10dB at 40Hz. Could be down another 6dB by the time one steps on the LOW C pedal (32.7Hz).

Keep in mind that the frequency of the low A-string on a bass is 55Hz. So anything below that will begin to drop off rather dramatically.

Theoretically correct. However, it might help to bear in mind that, though the fundamental note at 55hz or below may not be noticeable, people will still hear the harmonics, and our brains tend to fill in the blanks. Many people play 5-string basses through these cabs without any loss of apparent sound, and the B string is tuned at 31hz, slightly lower than low C pedal on the T3. And, since the T3's oscillators produce sawtooth waves, its sound is rich in harmonics. Here's a link to a good article that discusses this:

http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php?tit ... requencies

That being said, you can dial out the harmonics with the filter cut-off, and the T3's filter self-oscillates as well, producing sine waves that have no harmonics. So, if you really feel the need to reproduce these low frequency fundamentals, then it will be worth looking into a cab that will provide enough SPL at the low end. I understand that Acme makes decent cabs that will reproduce a B note's fundamental with enough power to kill small animals, cripple children, and put a hurting on pretty much everyone else!

In the end, I believe it comes down to auditioning the cabs yourself, if at all possible, and finding the one that gives the sound/power that you're looking for.

It's true what you say about amplifying harmonics of very low frequency signals and not hearing a lot of fundamental. A cab like the 810 definitely works but the frequency response of the cab that even though it works great for electric bass, results in a lack of the deepest lows my Voyager puts out. The rolloff can be so dramatic with the synth that the lowest notes aren't really usable since those upper frequencies tend to have a buzzy sound when the fundamental is missing. Theres no thunder!

Personally if I were going to gig with a bass dedicated instrument like the Taurus I would use a reasonably portable high fidelity sub speaker with a solid state power amp and a pre with flexible low-mid eq.

metron wrote:

mayidunk wrote:

metron wrote:

mayidunk wrote:The 8X10 can go down to an effective freq. of about 40Hz. If that's enough for your needs, then you're all set.

I think the 40 Hz spec they list for the 810 is misleading since at -10dB you aren't hearing much. The -3dB of 58 Hz is a better spec to represent the low end capability of the Ampeg 810.

Stick_Player wrote:But these cabinets do not really produce very low frequencies well. Even Ampeg rates the cabinet as: Frequency Response (-3dB): 58Hz-5kHz. And it drops to -10dB at 40Hz. Could be down another 6dB by the time one steps on the LOW C pedal (32.7Hz).

Keep in mind that the frequency of the low A-string on a bass is 55Hz. So anything below that will begin to drop off rather dramatically.

Theoretically correct. However, it might help to bear in mind that, though the fundamental note at 55hz or below may not be noticeable, people will still hear the harmonics, and our brains tend to fill in the blanks. Many people play 5-string basses through these cabs without any loss of apparent sound, and the B string is tuned at 31hz, slightly lower than low C pedal on the T3. And, since the T3's oscillators produce sawtooth waves, its sound is rich in harmonics. Here's a link to a good article that discusses this:

http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php?tit ... requencies

That being said, you can dial out the harmonics with the filter cut-off, and the T3's filter self-oscillates as well, producing sine waves that have no harmonics. So, if you really feel the need to reproduce these low frequency fundamentals, then it will be worth looking into a cab that will provide enough SPL at the low end. I understand that Acme makes decent cabs that will reproduce a B note's fundamental with enough power to kill small animals, cripple children, and put a hurting on pretty much everyone else!

In the end, I believe it comes down to auditioning the cabs yourself, if at all possible, and finding the one that gives the sound/power that you're looking for.

It's true what you say about amplifying harmonics of very low frequency signals and not hearing a lot of fundamental. A cab like the 810 definitely works but the frequency response of the cab that even though it works great for electric bass, results in a lack of the deepest lows my Voyager puts out. The rolloff can be so dramatic with the synth that the lowest notes aren't really usable since those upper frequencies tend to have a buzzy sound when the fundamental is missing. Theres no thunder!

Personally if I were going to gig with a bass dedicated instrument like the Taurus I would use a reasonably portable high fidelity sub speaker with a solid state power amp and a pre with flexible low-mid eq.

That sounds about right. The Acme bass cabs have a freq response of 41hz to 22Khz, +/- 3 db, -6db at 31hzwith sensitivities fron 90 to 96\db, depending on which cab is used. Coupled with an amp putting out around 800 watts, you can get way low!

BTW, I'm not a schill for Acme, I've just heard some good things. They sound like decent all-in-one cabs.

I actually used to own the Acme 410 and 210 years ago. Andy the guy who makes them is local. They performed as advertised but I found that I liked low fidelity and a vintage tone (Ampeg + sealed cab) in my bass rig so I ended up selling them. I think Acmes would be interesting with a set of Taurus pedals though.

Sounds like they were custom made for Moog!

people will still hear the harmonics, and our brains tend to fill in the blanks.

Absolutely correct. Organ builders from long ago knew this and guitar players using 'power chords' know this.

This effect is most noticeable with Perfect Fifths or Fourths. For instance, the frequency of an Open G-string (on a guitar) is appx. 196Hz. and the Open D-String is appx. 147Hz.. Play these together through a Marshall with some good crunch and you will hear the Differential Tone of appx. 49Hz - or a Low G. This is the effect used on the opening chord to Smoke on the Water.

But... if you want to produce the Fundamental and NOT a Differential Tone at a substantial volume, you will appreciate a well designed speaker system that can efficiently reproduce the pitches from the Taurus 3.

The Acme bass cabs have a freq response of 41hz to 22Khz, +/- 3 db, -6db at 31hzwith sensitivities fron 90 to 96\db, depending on which cab is used. Coupled with an amp putting out around 800 watts, you can get way low!

The info on their sight (for their smallest cabinet - Acme Low B-1 Series II) suggests that the lowest frequencies drop by 6db @ 31Hz (Low B-string). And if I did my calculations correctly at FULL rated power (175 Watts) a Low B comes in at appx. 112dB at one metre. That's pretty good! Their BIG cab increases quite a bit over the small one. If you can get a 700W+ amp and the Acme Low B-4 Series II cab, at one metre the SPL of a Low B would be at appx. 124dB.

The question about this cabinet is whether it can project these frequencies well. It's well priced. It's got midrange and horn components. Real Hi-Fi for bass. Drop another $2,000 and one could have a nice rig for the Taurus 3.

Stick_Player wrote:

people will still hear the harmonics, and our brains tend to fill in the blanks.

Absolutely correct. Organ builders from long ago knew this and guitar players using 'power chords' know this.

This effect is most noticeable with Perfect Fifths or Fourths. For instance, the frequency of an Open G-string (on a guitar) is appx. 196Hz. and the Open D-String is appx. 147Hz.. Play these together through a Marshall with some good crunch and you will hear the Differential Tone of appx. 49Hz - or a Low G. This is the effect used on the opening chord to Smoke on the Water.

But... if you want to produce the Fundamental and NOT a Differential Tone at a substantial volume, you will appreciate a well designed speaker system that can efficiently reproduce the pitches from the Taurus 3.

The Acme bass cabs have a freq response of 41hz to 22Khz, +/- 3 db, -6db at 31hzwith sensitivities fron 90 to 96\db, depending on which cab is used. Coupled with an amp putting out around 800 watts, you can get way low!

The info on their sight (for their smallest cabinet - Acme Low B-1 Series II) suggests that the lowest frequencies drop by 6db @ 31Hz (Low B-string). And if I did my calculations correctly at FULL rated power (175 Watts) a Low B comes in at appx. 112dB at one metre. That's pretty good! Their BIG cab increases quite a bit over the small one. If you can get a 700W+ amp and the Acme Low B-4 Series II cab, at one metre the SPL of a Low B would be at appx. 124dB.

The question about this cabinet is whether it can project these frequencies well. It's well priced. It's got midrange and horn components. Real Hi-Fi for bass. Drop another $2,000 and one could have a nice rig for the Taurus 3.

I believe that in order to effectively project sounds at those wave lengths, the cab would need to be on a stage in a large hall, or outdoors. I also believe that you would need to be at least 25 feet or so away from the front of the cab in order to get the full effect of the wavefront developed at those freqs.

I would love to see someone point me to a PA system or explain to me how to hook a crossover and subs to a PA and point me to a PA with speakers adequate enough to handle the specific frequencies that the Taurus is putting out.

I am beginning to think that the best thing to do is to let Moog make the reccomendation.

EricK wrote:I would love to see someone point me to a PA system or explain to me how to hook a crossover and subs to a PA...

start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_reinforcement_system

I would love to see someone point me to a PA system or explain to me how to hook a crossover and subs to a PA...

Where will you be using the T3?

I'll most likely be using it in my studio. Here is my sub woofer:



Event 20/20 s250. The specs: 15" speaker, 28Hz - 120Hz, -3dB, 250W - SPL: 117dB @ 1 meter. It's a powered sub and I have powered full range speakers for the rest. One could get a PA system that is similar. You just need to know what you'll be using the T3 for.

I rarely listen to anything above 100dB or so. And, I only need to fill about 2,200 cubic feet. A far cry from filling a soccer stadium.

The Event 20/20s sound like the ticket! Decent specs, and I like that it has an adjustable crossover. What I don't like is that the driver uses a foam surround. These tend to deteriorate over time. However, whenever it does decide to crumble, the surround can be replaced with a rubber surround pretty easily. Here's the link to the user manual:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... VCpsS0UfDA

Only one issue... where can you buy one? It doesn't look like anyone's selling them.

I appreciate the links so far. I don't have any plans on gigging with the it. I will be using it primarily for recording at this time, however, I want to have something that I can run it through where I can at least hear the sound that I purchased.



Eric

Being basically cheap, I started looking at the Behringer Truth B2092A studio subwoofer. Reviews I've read say its sound is well defined, and not muddy. Seems it is really unobtrusive, and reinforces the low-end without being boomy or strident. It uses XLR ins and outs, and has a phasing switch along with a room contour control and input trimmer. A couple of caveats are that the wattage spec is higher than what the power supply spec shows. Also, the amp apparently runs kind of hot as well, so it needs to be out in the open, away from radiators and such. At around $200, it might be worth looking into.

I started thinking that I might want to get one, but my Nady monitors put out enough bass for my uses, so I think I'll save my money for the time being.

Only one issue... where can you buy one? It doesn't look like anyone's selling them.

Yes, it looks like these are 'unavailable'. You might get a good deal on a used one. Check the usual places: ebay, craigslist.

I do seem to remember that the 's' in s250 meant that it is the 'short' model. The regular 250 is taller. But I could be thinking of something else - as I usually tend to do.

I've had mine for about 4 years. I don't see any problems with the woofer. I don't always engage it when I am tracking or even during mixing, though. I use it more as a 'check' during final mixing or mastering. It sure makes the music 'feel' good!

There must be other comparable subs out there. But it is nice to have the options provided with this particular model.

I actually find that I get very good bass with my 6.5" monitors. I A/B'd them with a set of good headphones, and they are comparable. (I know, I know... no pant flappin'! But I have neighbors with very loud sound systems. Call it detente... )

Actually, I'm afraid that after dropping a ton of money on a subwoofer, I'd decide that it was just muddying up the mix and stop using it.