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Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:57 pm
by Subtronik
Loved Chemical Brothers Exit Planet Dust, but not much else.

As for NIN, I loved Pretty Hate Machine, and Closer To God is an excellent track. I don't like his rock stuff at all.

I'm wondering if when artists go modular they over complicate things and the music suffers.

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:15 pm
by Voltor07
Subtronik, you make an excellent point. Music is a very subjective thing though. I personally like NIN's newer stuff, though I also like the older stuff, Pretty Hate Machine in particular.

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:32 pm
by jon_kull
Subtronik wrote:
jon_kull wrote:Nine Inch Nails, VNV Nation, Velvet Acid Christ...to name a few
Do you have any video links of these artists using modulars in any of their hits?
No but..

Image

Image

http://www.flickr.com/photos/maubrownco ... 430657572/

http://www.synthtopia.com/news/06_07/Ni ... Modul.html

http://www.vnvnation.com/Webfiles/hardware.htm

Bryan (Hexfix93) of Velvet Acid Christ is a modular user and was very active on modularsynth.net and muffwiggler.com (before he was banned) and used modulars for the basses and leads on the new album he's trying to release. He has some gear stuff on his website here: http://www.velvetacidchrist.com/categor ... h-reviews/ (scroll down and click the previous entries links as well...he has modular stuff on a few pages) and had some videos on youtube (hexfix93) which no longer seem to be available.
I've always wondered how modulars would fit into club type electronic music.
Like I said in my previous post a modular isn't any different from any other monosynth. If you want to program bass and lead lines with one...you can. If you want to make strange textures with one...you can. If you want to use it to make bleeps and bloops...you can do that too. If you need MIDI so you can control it from your DAW/sequencer like all your other synths...you can have that too. Just add a Kenton MIDI interface. A modular is really only limited by your imagination that's the beauty of working with them. You create the signal path to suit your needs for the kind of sounds you're after. For example VCO -> VCF -> VCA, ADSR -> VCF, ADSR -> VCA will get you started on any bass or lead you care to make. They're incredibly flexible instruments.

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:46 pm
by Subtronik
Voltor07 wrote:Music is a very subjective thing though.
So true.

I just remembered one artist I've always liked that uses modulars in a lot of his hits, Jack Dangers from Meat Beat Manifesto:

http://www.analogsynths.com/interviews/interview3.html

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:52 pm
by Subtronik
jon_kull wrote:Like I said in my previous post a modular isn't any different from any other monosynth. A modular is really only limited by your imagination that's the beauty of working with them. They're incredibly flexible instruments.
I've been an industrial fan since 1981, and IMO, the industrial artists you've mentioned all made better music before they went modular, especially NIN and VAC.

Btw, do you have any modular examples of your own music?

Looking back I think Voltor had the best idea for a modular newbies:
Voltor07 wrote:Buy a module, learn how to use it, buy another module, learn it, buy another, and another, etc. Very versatile.

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:12 pm
by jon_kull
Subtronik wrote:
jon_kull wrote:Like I said in my previous post a modular isn't any different from any other monosynth. A modular is really only limited by your imagination that's the beauty of working with them. They're incredibly flexible instruments.
Subtronik wrote:I've been an industrial fan since 1981, and IMO, the industrial artists you've mentioned all made better music before they went modular, especially NIN and VAC.
You've got me beat by a couple years. I didn't get into it until '86 or so. I think everything NIN has put out since Pretty Hate Machine has pretty much sucked to be honest though I don't see how his use of modulars would factor into it. I'd blame it on the over use of guitars. I still enjoy VNV and VAC on occasion though.

Btw, do you have any modular examples of your own music?
No. I don't share my music because I'm embarrassed by my lack talent. :P I play things for myself, my friends and my wife but that's about it. Right now I have no MIDI interface. I sold my Kenton for some quick $$$ when I needed to fix my motorcycle. When I get my copy of Motu Volta I'd be more than happy to record some sequenced leads/arps and basses for you so you can see what a modular would sound like in a dancier context. Maybe this weekend...

BTW - I checked out your myspace page...good stuff there. What are you using besides the Voyager?

Anyway I don't want to derail the OP's thread anymore. Cheers!

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:19 pm
by Subtronik
jon_kull wrote:I think everything NIN has put out since Pretty Hate Machine has pretty much sucked to be honest though I don't see how his use of modulars would factor into it. I'd blame it on the over use of guitars.
Regardless, modulars haven't made their music any better.

I still like VNV though. Didn't realize their music was made with modulars.
jon_kull wrote:When I get my copy of Motu Volta I'd be more than happy to record some sequenced leads/arps and basses for you so you can see what a modular would sound like in a dancier context.
That would be great, since I have nothing to go by for modular dance music, if there is such a thing.
jon_kull wrote:What are you using besides the Voyager?
Softsynths mostly, but the hardware that's sprinkled throughout is a Kurzweil 2000 VP, Korg MS2000 BR, and a Yamaha RM1X.

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:21 am
by jon_kull
I picked up a copy of Expert Sleepers Silent Way (the poor man's alternative to MOTU Volta) last night and now have MIDI control of my modular again. I started working on a short all-modular dance track. If I have time to finish it when I get home form work I'll post it here tonight. If not then probably tomorrow night.

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:25 pm
by chromex
I think Radiohead has to be mentioned in any discussion of major "popular' artists who use modulars, including onstage.And Thom Yorke's solo cd as well. In the past, the instrumental break in "Virginia Plain" a big hit for Roxy Music back in the day was performed by Brian Eno on a VCS ( at least in the live beat club tv tapes, that is what he was appearing to use), Kraftwerk's US top 40 hit, Autobahn, relied on modulars and Edgar Winter's "Frankenstein" used an Arp 2600 ( a normalized modular, concededly).

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:51 pm
by Carey M
chromex wrote:Kraftwerk's US top 40 hit, Autobahn, relied on modulars
I was under the impression that Autobahn was mostly Minimoog and Arp Odyssey Mk I?? Maybe some EMS for additional FX, but mostly Mini and Oddy...?

- CM

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:47 pm
by Lux_Seeker
Thanks for all the great advice on my next musical purchase here. I found some real solid advice here.

There are a few reasons that I want a Mac. A relatively minor reason is that there are a few synths that I can't get for windows, Metasynth and some granular synths. The second is that my PC is aging and some of the things I try to do are a strain for it CPU wise. However, it can probably hold out another few years. Another good reason to wait is for a quad core Macbook. I don't want to get one and then have the quad core come out.

A much more important reason is that MOTU's Volta is only available for a Mac right now. I have been meaning to write to MOTU or send and E-Mail and find out if there is any hope for a windows version. Volta reminds me very much of the "ghost tracks" of Morton Subotnick and I am a big Subotnick fan.

I liked the picture here of the long and short modular cabinet. I might get something like this after getting a Voyager. I am not really interested in building a huge modular although I am sure that once addicted that could change. I really want to have a specific reason modules.

This is perhaps the most interesting quote:
I'm wondering if when artists go modular they over complicate things and the music suffers.
My musiic creates somewhat of a cotradiction. First, I am an experimental composer in the sense that my music fall far outside of traditional musical bondaries and I am always looking for new sounds. There was also another quote here pointing out that many samples used by artists come from modulars.

I suspect that there is uncharted sonic territory in the land of modulars but the second part of the contradiction is this, much of what I do is improvised. I get a concept in my mind and then I find what synths I want to use. Sometimes I then have a sound design phase where I make my own patches not as general patches but programmed for the work I am creating. Then I layer everthing together often vertically but sometimes horizontally as well.

Having a natural feel to playing music is important to me. When any system gets to complex you can defintely get lost in it. There is this disconnect between the sound and the concept. I feel that the best music I have created is when there is as little gap as possible between these and things flow oranically between idea and sound.

In the end, I think this is what I love about the Voyager. It's very organic. The knobs are all there and they can become part of the performance to that sound design and performance become joined. That great music. Part of me is composer but part is also musican.

I am also not a purist For more complex structures, I believe that a MIDI controlled system offers many advantages Volta being one example. Voyager itself is also an example of a hyrid synth but also the Buchla 200e although at a much much higher price tag and one that I can't afford although the 200e is really the modular of my dreams.

With my foogers and Volta, my laptop and desktop, I think I can get buy for a time without modular or Macbook. So I would be jumping up and down if MOTU made Volta for Windows.

Thanks agan for all the great help. I am leaning towards getting a Voyager first and then go from there.

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:15 am
by jon_kull
Lux_Seeker wrote:This is perhaps the most interesting quote:
I'm wondering if when artists go modular they over complicate things and the music suffers.
I think it depends on the artist and how complicated they want to make things. You can actually achieve a lot with very simple patches and the workflow (believe it or not) isn't much different from what you describe. I think people make them out to be these mythical beasts that need to be tamed when in fact it's just a synth. The biggest difference between a modular and a synth like the Voyager is the modular isn't locked into a standard VCO-VCF-VCA signal path. That in itself gives you a wider sonic palette.

As for your Voyager choice I guess what it comes down to is having the right tool for the job and being comfortable with that tool. If the Voyager is going to fit your workflow and get you the results you're after then go for it. It's a really great synth. High quality construction. High quality sound. I used to own 2 of them. :P

Let us know which one you get and what colors if it's a Select Series.

Funny but I'm in the mood to play my Voyager now...

PS - I finished my all modular dance track and will post it if anyone is interested.

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:16 am
by Voltor07
jon_kull wrote: PS - I finished my all modular dance track and will post it if anyone is interested.
Yes please! :D

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:03 am
by jon_kull
This is about using a modular in a more musical context. It's not about my musicianship or mixing abilities. Speaking of mixing we have a baby in the house and I'm forced to mix through headphones. This sounds great on my AKG K271s...it sounds like crap on my car stereo. It sounds like crap on my laptop speakers. I don't know how it will sound when you listen to it. I would suggest a good pair of headphones or some monitors. Anyway...it's a 32 measure loop that repeats twice with an 8 measure intro.

Kick drum: self-oscillating filter run through VCA controlled by an envelope.

Hats, snare and 'banging' sounds: FM synthesis. self-oscillating filter -> VCO FM input (adjust to taste) -> VCA controlled by envelope.

Percussion was recorded as individual drum hits into Logic and then put into Ultrabeat and sequenced.

Sweep like sound at beginning of song: self-oscillating filter -> CV input of second self-oscillating filter. Cutoff of first filter is controlled by an envelope.

There are 4 synth tracks used. They are all the same basic patch but each one uses a different filter. I also alternated between square and saw waves. The basic patch is a single VCO -> VCF -> VCA, ADSR -> VCA, ADSR -> VCF similar to the Voyager signal path. Sometimes there is an LFO connected to cutoff on the VCF.

First lead uses the Harvestman Polivoks filter. This is a recreation of the filter from the Russian Polivoks analog synth from the 1980s. It's built with the original Soviet parts (new-old stock) and was co-designed by the creator of the Polivoks.

Main bass line (that starts at the 9th measure) uses the Wiard Boogie filter. This is a vactrol filter that is based on the Moog ladder with separate filter pole outputs. I used the 6db and 18db outputs and mixed them together.

Second lead uses the Wiard Borg filter. This is a hybrid between the Korg MS-20 filter and a Buchla low pass gate. Buchla...Korg...Borg...get it?

Third arp-thing (that comes in around the 25th measure or so) uses the Livewire FrequenSteiner. This is a diode ladder filter based on the Steiner Synthasystem filter.

I sequenced and recorded this in Logic 8. I set up a midi track using the Silent Way MIDI/CV plug-in and used that to send CV/gate signals to the modular which I then recorded as audio to individual tracks via a MOTU Ultralite.

Visuals for what these patches look like can be found here: http://gallery.me.com/jon.kull#100022

The audio itself is here: http://recoilsun.bandcamp.com/track/m-is-for-modular

This was a fun exercise. I may try this with my Voyager OS next.

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:35 am
by Lux_Seeker
Nice work, not my style, but nice work.

If you want a sample of the type of music I make you can find it here:

http://soundcloud.com/lux_seeker

As you can see, not really dance music. I call what I do experimental, ambient or electroacoustical for lack of a better description. I am always looking for a certain sound.

What I find with most of the stuff I hear coming from modulars is that its either glitchy/circut bending type stuff or dance music neither of which I really have an interest in. What I am interested in sounds that put the listener into a different space. For example, in Gyogry's Lament, I based what I did on some of the techniques used by Gyrogy Ligeti. If you don't know who he is you know his music if you have listened to 2001. Much of the later half of the movie uses his music. The idea in this piece is to create a sense of awe and mystery. The technique. Simple. Its done by detuning oscillators and using half step musical intervals (not Ligeti's but mine)

In "Midnight Wind" I am using a sample of a middle eastern instrument called a Dudek. I am also using impulse response to get the reverb and some note bending. It creates a kind of haunting sound which is why I wanted to record a song with it.

"A Disturbance in the Clouds" is really an anti nuke piece. It is intended to be distrubing and unsettling. It is based partially on processed sound effects but also a few soft synths that are used at different parts. They are used each for their own unique sound that fits the story if you will.

"Random Voices" is more of a pure ambient piece influenced somewhat by Brian Eno. It uses a lot of simple intervals and slow attack times to create a flowing collage of slowing changing timbres.

Anyway, that gives you the idea of what I try to do. I try to create a sonic atmosphere and put the listener in the space. I even read a lot of book lately on how to put emotion into music and books on psychoacoustics.

I read a very good article in the latest version of "Electronic Musician" that talks about how to write patches. The common opinion is rather than starting from the ground up, the simplest most effective way is to take patches that sound close to the kind of sound you are looking for and tweak them. I see this thinking predominate on many boards like this. The article suggest that the best way is to desconstruct a sound started with the simplest component, the oscillator, and then to build back up. That way, you can understand and appreicate, in many ways savour, the sounds that make up that great patch that you might like. You can also understand better where the sound comes from.

Sometimes, it really the simplest of sounds that work in a particular musical context. Sometimes, complexity just adds noise and confusion. Sometimes what is simple works well. One example, in the article was varying the attack time of a note based on the position on the keyboard. Another was varying the position of an envelope start time based on an LFO so that every note was a little different. While these may or many not be possible on a Voyager, there are other simple things thata are that can add a great deal to a musical performance.

There is the story of a boy who buys an old violin in a music store and keeps practicing but also struggling at times. He tells this man who is a virtuoso. The man takes the old violin and plays it and out comes the most beautiful music. Sometimes, the music is not where we think it is.

In many ways I feel that a Voyager has sonic vistas that are often untapped. Rather than going broader with a modular, I think sometimes going deeper in analogue synthesis is a bettter way to go and that is why I would consider a Voyager, at least first, over a modular. Then, if an when the need for more complexity arises, and I can use it in a musical way, then I will get a modular.