Moog Music Forum

I presume this is what you are talking about:

http://www.petersontuners.com/sonuusgw

In general, I am against any pitch to MIDI conversion for several reasons.

First, there are latency problems and false triggering. Clearly, this unit is being marketed based not on low latency like the "Axon":

http://www.axon-technologies.net/module ... menu=10103

But rather, "robust triggering" which means, less false triggers. I agree to some extent that the problem with guitar synths is more an issue of false triggers than latency although latency is certainly an issue.

This unit also does not use special pickups. In many ways an advantage but also realize that its those special pickups that allow each string to be a separate MIDI channel allowing for special tunings and other interesting MIDI triciks.

One must realize that latency is an issue that can't be eliminated. It's not a matter of better technology it is inherant in how units such as this determine pitch. Without going into the mathematics, which I do understand, there is an inherant blur between time and frequency.

Some have commented here that the freqbox responds very fast. It actually responds in an instant because its not converting frequency but using hard sync. For this reason, and why I really like it, its organic.

I also did not buy my freqbox for guitar. Frankly, I don't need to make my guitar sound like a synth. I play keyboards as well. I also have one of these:

http://www.starrlabs.com/

Starr Labs makes custom fretboard based MIDI controllers. It's more like keyboard in the form of a freboard. It has no more latency than a MIDI keyboard and it will not mistrigger unless you play the wrong note. It also has some awsome advanges. First, you can play chords and second, you can do some incredible things with tapping and right hand technique. Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FjYdxAxwaA

Bottom line, I let a guitar be a guitar. In many ways, outside the cost issue, Moog was smart to create the Moog Guitar. I really like it just not the price. The Moog Guitar does no pitch to MIDI conversion. Its a guitar but it has some enhancements that expand what a guitar can do.

What I also don't like about pitch to MIDI is when it translates pitch, it sound unatural on a oscillator. The transient portion of a not is highly complex If you look at a sonogram of any non bowed, no perscussive instrument you will see that after the initial attack phase, the sonogram will stabilize but before then, it is complex.

I have spend a lot of time working with additive synthesizers and it's really for this reason that I am not a fan of additive synthesis because I understand the limitations of the model that tells us that any sounds is just a serious of harmonics that change pitch and amplitude in time. This is not really true but again, I will not go into the mathematics of it. The fast fourier transform, what is used for pitch to MIDI, makes sense for a stable waveform but when we are talking transients, time has to be windowed, broken up into frames, and thats were the whole problem comes in. Bottom line, it does not work and to me, pitch envelopes for pitch to MIDI sound artifical to me.

Guitars have great transients. Its what gives each guitarist a unique sound. Why we want to turn them into a synthesizer is beyond me other than a guitarist wanting to be able to play a synth and the ZTar will do that. A freqbox is not a synthesizer. Its a hard sync effect which has been around for a while but a nice implemenation by Moog. Its organic, analogue and beautiful.

Now I would like an analogue pitch follower but no pitch to MIDI.

I have a MIDI to CV but I got that to integrate with my digital synth, not my guitar.

First off those star lab controllers look amazing, I never heard of them before. Definately look more reliable than the casio midi guitars lol, although they are fun.

And by no means was I suggesting that this would be the best option to control the freqbox, just a different way for guitar players to experiment and gain control over the pitch of the oscillator with out having to use hard sync, and it seemed like there are a couple people who want to achieve this. And this is a relatively inexpensive route to go. So yes the starlab controllers are very nice BUT a freqbox, sonuus g2m, and a midi>cv converter are A LOT cheaper. Im not going to go into the mathematics of it because that is an equation we can all understand.

ColorForm2113 wrote:First off those star lab controllers look amazing, I never heard of them before. Definately look more reliable than the casio midi guitars lol, although they are fun.

And by no means was I suggesting that this would be the best option to control the freqbox, just a different way for guitar players to experiment and gain control over the pitch of the oscillator with out having to use hard sync, and it seemed like there are a couple people who want to achieve this. And this is a relatively inexpensive route to go. So yes the starlab controllers are very nice BUT a freqbox, sonuus g2m, and a midi>cv converter are A LOT cheaper. Im not going to go into the mathematics of it because that is an equation we can all understand.

I do have a Starr Lab's controller. I can assure you its not toy like the Casio hoverer fun. They are customed designed to spec by Harvey Starr in fact, when I ordered mind I spoke directly with Harvey. For this reason they are not mass produced and therefore not cheap but if you are a guitar player and don't care for pitch to MIDI (and I don't as I stated), then this is a good way to go. They also offer a number of other alternative keyboards which look interesting (and expensive). How expensive is a matter of what you put on them. Mine has a ribbon controller and joystick along with string triggers.

The sound is up to you. You can get synth boards for them but I just run mine though the MIDI in on MIDI keyboard. They end up opening up performance avenues that are not possible with any other instrument.

The only negative I would report is that the distance between frets is uniform so if you have developed positional memory on the fretboard, as I have, it will not mesh.

I also agree that this is a cheaper option than a modular. I just dont' like way pitch to MIDI works but that is my personal gripe and why I bought a ZTar. One thing I have got to try is go MIDI to CV (I have a box) from the ZTar to the foogers. Lots of interesting possbilities.

Since this thread is called "Taming The FreqBox", I thought I would put up a link to a YouTube gear demo video I made for the unit.

This demo is specifically for guitar applications:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvNzjZJVVdw

penguin_rock wrote:Since this thread is called "Taming The FreqBox", I thought I would put up a link to a YouTube gear demo video I made for the unit.

This demo is specifically for guitar applications:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvNzjZJVVdw

Nice work. Frankly, a better demonstration that Moog. I am surpised they have not tried to put a demo out that makes the Freqbox sound mor tame. Clearly, as you have said, both distortion and compression have a lot to do with taming it as well as the use of the neck pickup. The reason the neck works better is that its going to elimnate some of the trasient nature of the guitar as is compression.

So once again, great demo clearly showing the there is a tamer nature to the freqbox with guitar.

I've managed to tame the Freqbox by putting a filter before it- Specifically my Bass Micro Synth. Im using it with only the 'guitar' slider up (clean signal) and all other sliders all the way down, except for the 'stop frequency' which I put about 1mm from the lowest position. This eq's out most of the highs and doesn't resonate the lows very much, and makes the Freqbox track sub frequencies very well- I generally use an OC-2 octaver with -1oct 100% wet, and transposing my bass lines an octave up to compensate, so I'm playing in roughly the 20hz and up range. This makes the freqbox track very well and gives me 'clean' fat waves that sustain well and filters dynamically respond wonderfully to-- much better than a compressed gated-fuzz imitation.

As previously mentioned above, I've also found the Freqbox to track a dirty/compressed signal much better than a clean one as well, but for my application the BMS does the trick with flying colors. I need to try an eq pedal in the BMS's place and see if it has the same effect- I prefer the BMS filter to a more compressed signal (ie square suboctave or fuzz) because it retains more of my playing dynamics- though I haven't experimented with light compression in it's place yet (via compressor pedal), but either way the Freqbox can definitely be tamed for use with a bass guitar (and other)a number of ways and it's a great pedal. I'll post a clip in the next day or so.