Moog Music Forum

roboctopus wrote: For instance, filters opened up, ran straight into the mixing board, I can tell a difference in sound between my Roland Juno 60 and my Moog Prodigy (these are the only synths I have, so that's the extent of the testing I can do.) Just like I can tell a difference in sound when I plug in my Telecaster and my Strat straight into the mixing board. They just sound different. Different wood, different pick-ups (same strings.)

Well, your mixing board and speakers are the "amp" in this situation. When I say amp, I'm not necesarily talking about a guitar amp, rather the act of the signal amplified and put through a loud speaker. But I do see how my argument is getting pretty weak. Because any signal must go through this process to be heard (including "direct" recordings).

roboctopus wrote: To my ears, the only thing an amp does is add another tonal characteristic to the existing sound. Same for whatever room you're in. Different rooms, different sound. To postulate that synths won't sound much different before they are amplified but will sound different after they are amplified doesn't make much sense. At least, that's my way of thinking.

I agree, it doesn't really make that much sense. It's more an observation, and I'm not really coming up with much of an explaination... so, I'll stop and spare everyone.

All I know is, there is definitely a tangible quality to the sound of a synth like the MiniMoog (but not just the Mini), that I find gets lost when the sound is recorded, especially when it's not recorded "live". I find this to be true of guitars and other electric instruments as well. They seem to lose an integral nuance of their sound when they go straight to recording. I know it sounds illogical, but I believe there is some important quality of their sound that is dependent on the amplification.

Someone knows what I'm talking about here, right? anyone?

Am I crazy, or is it not a totally different sound between "direct" and "live" that is more than just the sound of the room and/or particular amp?

eric coleridge wrote: Well, your mixing board and speakers are the "amp" in this situation. When I say amp, I'm not necesarily talking about a guitar amp, rather the act of the signal amplified and put through a loud speaker. But I do see how my argument is getting pretty weak. Because any signal must go through this process to be heard (including "direct" recordings).

Just one last note, I'm just using headphones hooked up to my mixing board, as I don't really have speakers. My mixing board, a tiny, humble one, just runs into my soundcard for recording. So the sounds I was talking about, be they guitar or synth, didn't get out into the room at all.

Although, to play devil's advocate against my own argument, I do think amplification does something to sound, perhaps makes difference that are audible without an amp more pronounced. Just an idea.

Eric...

I'm just finishing my video on the Roland SH-1000 I'm about to sell on eBay... and you'll be happy to know I mixed the room recording picked up by the camera (which has a very decent stereo mic) and the digital recording I made whilst shooting... so in THAT video, you're getting both. : )
(the digital recording gives the bass frequencies that will be missing, and the camera recording makes my voice more understandable... but does lend a nice "room sound" to the SH-1000)

That's a very good idea, making a utube clip link to include on Ebay auctions.

I also like Ebay's idea of facilitating no-cost calls through Skype during an auction; another way like the video clips of enhancing sales potential.

Headphones are for me the worst possible way to compare synths, i need the naturalness of actual speakers. Those video samples provided sound quality that's close enough to actually being in the room and thus those reasonable comparisons can be made using them.

museslave wrote:Eric...

I'm just finishing my video on the Roland SH-1000 I'm about to sell on eBay... and you'll be happy to know I mixed the room recording picked up by the camera (which has a very decent stereo mic) and the digital recording I made whilst shooting... so in THAT video, you're getting both. : )
(the digital recording gives the bass frequencies that will be missing, and the camera recording makes my voice more understandable... but does lend a nice "room sound" to the SH-1000)

Oh, cool, I've always wondered how those ancient Rolands sound. I always guessed that they might be closer in sound (than later Rolands) to the earlier American "discrete" sounding synths like the Mini and Odyssey. But I've never had an opportunity to hear a SH2000, SH3, etc.

The Roland SH-1000 is near the top of the list of "analog synthesizers most misunderstood and underappreciated." At first glance, it looks like a mere preset synth, but it is also a surprisingly full-featured single-osc monophonic.
Whatever you do, don't look at any of the main synth sites for info on it... I was horrified today when I did that... I swear, most synth site reviews are written by 17 year olds who only very recently found out what analog synths are.
Yes, the SH-1000 is very discrete-sounding!
I think I finally got the video to load:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvwFQf8D44U

The early SHs had a very good old-school full, powerful and raw sound typical of other early monos. That character and power is completely lost with today's analog simulations. The only con is that Roland filters never had the warmth of many other analogs; that said it sounds excellent.

Another good video; sounds like you're there in the room, especially listening on headphones.

Thanks, analogbass!

Yeah... I agree about the filters. Seems like most early monophonics with presets had that characteristic nasal sort of filter.

I'll say what I always say about analog simulations... until the companies are willing to simulate the very "flaws" that emulation-buyers seek to avoid in real analog, they'll never get it right.
: )

Wow, it really sounds great (regardless of recording technique- ha ha), and very old school, discrete, etc. That bass guitar patch is fantastic and reminds me very much of a Mini.

I'm not surprised though-- I feel like the very first Japanese synths (like the early Shs and first Korgs) must have been heavily reliant on the technology of the first generation of american analogs.

What is the Modular in the background? Is it a dot com?

Hey Museslave,

I was checking out some of your other videos on YouTube and came across the MiniMoog Discussion video... it was getting interesting, and sounded very similar to my experiences with the Mini, but then it cut-out after about a minute in... is there more of it?

Hey, Eric...

Thanks for checking the stuff out!

The crazy thing about the SH-1000 is that I should be able to recreate all of the presets with the manual synthesizer... but some patches, like the bass guitar and the tuba... well, were... hmm. I'm not sure... it was kind of like I could just never recreate them. Anyway, I know what you mean about the bass guitar preset sounding like a Mini!
Yes, I think the Japanese drew heavily from the American designers. The lawsuit-generating ladder filter on the SH-3 being a prime example. ; ) But I think the Japanese also added a certain Japaneseness to the synthesizers they made. They were more efficient, more reliable, and more ordered.

I just listened to the Minimoog Discussion video, and it didn't cut out at all for me. Perhaps it was just loading too slowly because of traffic or something?
After just sitting through 3:36 of it, I have to say I am thankful that anyone else in the world would think that it was getting "interesting." : )
Analog synth enthusiasts are a rare breed. : )

Hey, you're right. I'd read some info on sh-1000s before, and figured it must be junk, but that seemed pretty neat, I must say. More than I imagined, by far.

what's the music at the beginning of the video?

I'm a sucker for anything about the Mini.

I've been playing various analog synths since I was about 15, in the late 80s. A friend of mine who had hippy prog parents bought him a Juno 60 around '89 or '90. At the time, I thought that thing was some crazy relic from the dawn of synthesizers (little did I know the juno was only about 5 years old at that point). So, I became aware of, and developed a liking for analog synths at a time when they were very inexpensive, and as a result I was able to buy, trade, own and play alot of different analog synths... I've had several Moogs, Rolands, Korgs, a few Arps, etc...

But for some reason, I never came across a MiniMoog in person until about 3 years ago in a synth store in NYC where I now live. And it totally changed my whole idea of how a synth should sound. Ever since I discovered the Mini, none of the other synths I play really compare; but I still haven't been able to justify the heavy price tag for a Mini(not yet, probably soon).

Anyway, for now, I enjoy the Mini vicariously through reading and talking about it. Also, I'm unemployed recently and rather idle...[/i]

roboctopus wrote:Hey, you're right. I'd read some info on sh-1000s before, and figured it must be junk, but that seemed pretty neat, I must say. More than I imagined, by far.

Yes, reading those sites inspired me to write a SCATHING response that I posted on my MySpace blog as well as a new hardware synth newsgroup. It makes me quite angry that these sites are the sites people go to for actual synthesizer information. Vintagesynth.com, for example, is like researching WWII in a library full of books written by teens who only know of it from their playstation.
If it wasn't so hideously off topic, long, and enraged, I'd post it here. : ) I guess I could go through and find all my Moog related complaints as I did my SH-1000 related complaints. : )

roboctopus wrote:what's the music at the beginning of the video?

It's a fragment of a song called Agnes Came Back, by Automatic Gainsay... which is me (myspace.com/automaticgainsay2). Sadly, it features no SH-1000, but don't tell anyone. HOWEVER... both the lead and the bass are a Moog Sonic Six!

eric coleridge wrote:Anyway, for now, I enjoy the Mini vicariously through reading and talking about it. [/i]

I have a similar history to you, except that I was exposed earlier, and began collecting later!
I was very interested in analog synthesizers, but there were simply NONE where I lived. I had no idea that people were even selling them anywhere until eBay came around, really. (I guess I remember seeing ads for them in the back of Keyboard... but there was no information on the models, so unless you experienced them directly, you had no idea what they were. There was no internet, then.)
Embarrasingly, I remember a Micromoog being for sale in my local music store in about 1984 or 5... right about the time I got my Juno 106. My friends and I used to mock it because "it only plays one note at a time! Who would want that?" :::ashamed of self::: (I sounded like a reviewer on vintagesynths.com) Later, I would pay a great deal more to have that very model. : )

We have to get you a Minimoog!