A REAL Moog

[EricK]

There are some people that really believe that people who play Moogs are snobs because everything has to be compared to "That Sound"

I recall something I read back when I owned my Honda...

It was a harley thing...

"Don't laugh at people who ride Hondas"

But seriously, people out there think that there are really people out there that are so stuck up about Moogs, but in my opinion, if you want to know what makes a Moog sound to me it simply is its filter.



If it wasn't an aspect of the sound, then it probably wouldn't be emulated in so many clones these days.




But to me, there is something that is about Moog that I am attracted to and I can't say for sure what it is. I grew up around the Moog, it was a household name (emphisis on correct pronunciation as well). WHen I first learned it, I just loved it. Sure I had a romantisized view about it...I was 18 when I first recorded with it, I was amazed at the bass it put out. Since then I love what the gear does, its interactivity with itself that keeps me coming back to moog, not necessarily some Brand fixation, because Ive never done that with ANYTHING. Simply the quality of the gear, its abillity to process any audio signal makes it valuable studio processing hardware in addition to it being a fantastic synth is why I own what I own.

The monophonic Moog suits me perfectly because Im not a keyboard player. Im a bass player.

Im aware that once a Brand gets a reputation for quality, like Fender, Harley and other brands, after awhile, they lose their edge. Its like in martial arts, when you think that, say your left punch is the best, it is the technique that is practiced the least and it gets rusty and lacks proper focus. This happens with so many brands because they get so used to being referred to as the best that they cease to strive for innovation. This can happen to any Brand and Moog is not immune. Thats why they have to be humble and remain focused, and Im sure they will.

[The Analog Organist]

I have one, and only one , Moog - a Voyager Old School. Years ago, I had a Model D. Besides that, I have three DSI synthesizers. So, I don't think I'm obsessed with things Moog, or a Moog snob. I simply want an instrument to be distinctive, rather than generic, and the "Moog sound" is the sort of distinctive sound that I want. That's all. I like thick and rich.

I've played other synthesizers that - although they sounded 'distinctive" - were not in my opinion a GOOD distinctive. Roland and Korg leave me unimpressed.

[Kevin Lightner]

I have my doubts that the reason a Moog sounds the way it does is just because of the filter.
Why? Several reasons.

First, there are several different versions of Moog filters.
Each sounds a bit different.
The filter in a Rogue, Prodigy or Source is not the same as found in a Minimoog.
Same for a Moog modular.
They're all 4 pole (-24dB/oct) ladder filters, but some are fully discrete (all transistors), some use ICs and some have different output stages, drive levels and coupling.
All of these differences in circuit design make for different sounding filters, yet they're all "Moog filters."

The Moogerfoogers also use a different filter circuit than what a Moog modular or Minimoog has, yet people tend to simply say it's a Moog filter and that's that.

Second, if one takes, say, an Arp 2600 and plugs it into a Moog filter or has a Moog filter clone installed inside, it still sounds pretty much like a 2600.

Conversely, if one patches up a Moog modular but doesn't patch in a filter at all or the filter is set fully open, it still tends to sound like a Moog modular.
Same for the Minimoog.
I've deliberately bypassed the filter completely in Minimoogs before and it still sounds like a Mini, albeit without any filtering on the sound.

So saying that a Moog sounds the way it does because of the filter doesn't make much sense to me.
Sure it adds to it sounding "Moogy", but there's all kinds of other aspects and qualities that add up to define "the Moog sound", not just the filter.

[anoteoftruth]

So saying that a Moog sounds the way it does because of the filter doesn't make much sense to me.
Sure it adds to it sounding "Moogy", but there's all kinds of other aspects and qualities that add up to define "the Moog sound", not just the filter.

Agreed. There is a Moog sound, but each instrument I've played had its own unique characteristics. The LP and the Voyager do not sound the same to me. I wish I knew a lot about the innards to contemplate why that might be, but I don't. I can say that I don't think it's the filter. Do they use different filters? I don't know. The Voyager filter sounds phatter to me. But the OSC's on the LP sound bigger to me. I don't know why, but this is just what I hear when I play it.

[jon_kull]

I recall something I read back when I owned my Honda...

It was a harley thing...

"Don't laugh at people who ride Hondas"

Yeah, that's sure changed. Now we all laugh at people that own Harley's. I was out on a big group ride a few weeks ago and the dude on the HD in front of me started dropping parts. I've always heard people joke about it but it was the first time I'd experienced it in person.

But I don't want to derail this thread anymore with bike talk...

[EricK]

Agreed. There is a Moog sound, but each instrument I've played had its own unique characteristics. The LP and the Voyager do not sound the same to me. I wish I knew a lot about the innards to contemplate why that might be, but I don't. I can say that I don't think it's the filter. Do they use different filters? I don't know. The Voyager filter sounds phatter to me. But the OSC's on the LP sound bigger to me. I don't know why, but this is just what I hear when I play it.

The Phatty's Oscs are a descendant of the Voyagers Oscs. I guess it all comes down to what people are referencing when they refer to "That Sound", probably either the earliest modulars or the Mini.

I did a 1 Osc comparison between the Voyager and my Micro, and the Micro's Osc sounded superior, it was darker it was different. I would have liked to have seen the difference on a scope, but I wish that the Voyager's oscs had that characteristic the Micro's had. Maybe in the next few months Ill do an audio comparison and post it.

Eric

[anoteoftruth]

The Phatty's Oscs are a descendant of the Voyagers Oscs.

Descendant as in, improved descendant? To me they sound different, but I'm just curious wether or not they are the same, or the LP is just based on the V but different in some way?

[EricK]

Thats really one for Amos to answer there.


Edit:
I could have very well misspoken, I may have been thinking about the Freqbox.
Now Id really like to know the answer to this one.

[latigid on]

The answer may be in distorted waveforms. Older tech = more noise, lower bandwidth etc. (just generalising).

Maybe try to add mild distortion via the mix/insert loop?

[Kevin Lightner]

I did a 1 Osc comparison between the Voyager and my Micro, and the Micro's Osc sounded superior, it was darker it was different. I

If you get a chance, read the Micromoog's service manual.
There they explain that since the instrument is a one oscillator design and not prone to intermodulation distortion, they cranked up the level of its one VCO higher than they'd normally use.
This results in increased harmonic distortion, which provides more harmonics for the filter to work with.

I'll even save you the trouble of finding the manual.
Here's the exact passage:

The input level (for the VCF) was chosen rather high at 40mV P-P for good signal to noise (S/N) ratio.
The high level drive results in appreciable harmonic distortion, but this is harmless (if not beneficial.)
There is, of course, no intermodulation distortion to worry about in a one oscillator instrument.
The level could even be higher if we didn't have to worry about excessive overdrive masking the effects of emphasis.

This last line might need explaining if you're not familiar with how resonance works, but to make it easier to understand, resonance is an inverted feedback loop between the VCF output and input.
When filter input levels are increased, there's a point where they can exceed this inverted feedback.
Since this feedback is what increases the resonance, exceeding it by too much will lower the amount of resonance possible.
That's why many synths sound sweeter when the oscs are not driven fully into their filters.
When they are, intermodulation distortion can increase (not a good sound) and resonance can decrease.

I prefer Minimoog D oscs set to about 6 (approx 1 o'clock on the panel.)
Of course, not all synths are the same and some won't noticeably affect resonance levels much if the filter is overdriven.
But Moog filters tend to be like this and it's perhaps one reason why some people cite Moog 901s as sounding better than 921s.
921s have hotter output levels.

[Just Me]

I've listened to filtered and unfiltered Moog modular oscillators and wish the Voyager or my dotcom could sound like them sometimes. There was a certain raw growl in the ones I played with that I've not heard anywhere else. I still can not justify the money for one for just that aspect.
I've got 3 different analog filters in my modular and love each one for certain things.

[Subtronik]

Up until a year ago, I had never even touched an analog synth. That's after 20 years of working with Digital, FM or VA synths.

After getting a LittlePhatty then a Voyager, my entire perspective on synths and the sounds they make has changed.

I still use my Kurzweil K2000 and Korg MS2000 once in awhile, but nothing compares to the fun and ease of dialing in that rich and creamy raw Moog sound.

I think that Bob and company tapped into the very essence of what makes a synthesizer exciting.

As for future Moog products, I have no doubt they'll keep producing top notch gear.

[CZ Rider]

I've listened to filtered and unfiltered Moog modular oscillators

Me too, fun experement!

The Moog sounds I hear in the modular are a synergy of all the parts. Every little piece from the oscillators, to the mixer, to the filter, to the VCA, to the way the envelopes shape the sound. All contribute to the electronic eco-system that makes up the tone. Changing any part would obviously have an impact on the final tone.
I did some samples of the Moog 901 oscillators and put them on a page here:
Moog modular samples
The samples were all recorded at the same volume. Each raw waveform of the 901 has a different output volume, the square/pulse the loudest. Then I sampled the sound as it is processed and mixed along the way. The CP3 mixers set at about 7 give unity gain, and set at 10 roughly doubles the input, and as more oscillators added and dependent on the waveform, it overdrives. (big part of the sound IMHO) The 904a VCF sampled wide open shapes the sound more. Even wide open this changes the tone, and that too will overdrive nicely when you push it. And then sampled after the VCA. Quite a few samples taken along the audio path.

I did the same with a 1974 Minimoog with samples of the raw oscillators, then samples at the final output.
Minimoog samples

Not sure what can be made of all this, but it is good to know your instrument and how the sound changes through the various modules.

[EricK]

I definately appreciate all the information presented here.

[synthpro]

The Voyager, Little Phatty, Taurus III, and Moogerfoogers have the fingerprints of Bob Moog all over them. They're truly Moogish. At this point, though, any all-new instruments that the Moog Music company develops will be free of Bob Moog's direct influence (although he's certainly influenced the staffers, and probably has left behind a number of blueprints for future instruments).

I don't know how the rest of you feel about this, but the fact does remove for me SOME of the attraction of Moog Music in general. What special meaning does the name brand "Moog" have from now on? New instruments will not be the by-product of the brilliant and original Bob Moog mind, but will merely carry his name. I know many of you are fans of the company's staffers, but they just ain't the real thing, even if Bob had a profound influence on them.

My point is this: I hope Moog Music revitalizes some of Bob's old instruments - the Polymoog, the Micromoog, etc. Fine, let the company update them, as they did the Voyager. I'm all for that. But personally, I'd much rather buy an instrument that carried Bob's name in a meaningful way, rather than just as a marketing advantage.

Moog Music, bring out some of Bob's old classics. Give us something with his fingerprints all over it, and not just instruments with his label on them.

I agree 100%. It is this reason I look for more vintage moogs than new ones. I do have to say as well, a good synth is a good synth, but there is a different feel in vintage moogs compared to new ones. It may just be me, but I feel more connected to vintage moogs. The oscillators sound different and if they break you can work on them. New moogs have surface mount electronics which is expensive to repair. I have nothing against new moogs, but the old ones are different.