When ? --> LP OS 1.04 & 2.00 for Tribute Edition

Amos · Post by **Amos** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:03 pm

How many times have I said that I will post with updates as soon as there is anything new to report? I don't have time to count right now because we are going mad trying to finish our current projects.

It's still true; I promise I will be very direct and forthcoming with updated information, the moment there is any new info at all.

-Amos

Assar · Post by **Assar** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:18 pm

Amos wrote:How many times have I said that I will post with updates as soon as there is anything new to report?

You have said that many times, and I believe you. Meanwhile, we are waiting for the bug fix after more than 1½ years. From what I know we can wait until our dying days, there will always be new products to develop.

Do you think that is a proper way to handle customers, Amos? Starting on new developments instead of fixing bugs on already sold equipment?

Amos · Post by **Amos** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:07 pm

Ideally we would be able to do both at the same time. We simply ran out of time and resources after writing the OS 2.0 for the Stage Edition; we were not able to continue firmware development at that time. Since then we have been waiting for an opportunity to return to this project. Meanwhile, yes we must develop and release new products, so that we may stay in business long enough to complete the OS2 for LPTE!

The Voyager firmware is also written by one person... there have been a number of updates over the years, but sometimes it may be more than a year between updates. Nobody's ever made such a fuss about it, though.

Remember also that our plan for the LPTE update is simply to make the "EGR MATRIX OFF" option more automatic, so that the matrix is off by default but turns on momentarily when you touch the Envelope knob. This will allow you to switch which Envelope parameter is being edited, and then the EGR MATRIX will turn off again. It's not a perfect solution, as there will still be noise any time the EGR MATRIX is on. There is no perfect solution; the noise will happen any time the envelope section switches are active, due to the physical layout of the components on the circuit board. This has been posted before in the LP noise thread; I'm just reminding you since you seem so insistent about new software. It's not a software bug to begin with, but we think we can make it easier to deal with by improving the software.

A real and permanent "hardware" solution would be to use a programmable MIDI knob controller and assign eight knobs to the envelope ADSR MIDI CC numbers... then leave EGR matrix off all the time, and tweak the envelopes via MIDI. No noise ever, that way.
You could do this very easily with the Evolution X-Session, for example (I only mention it because I have one and know it works), and you would still have eight programmable MIDI knobs (and a crossfader) to spare.

Assar · Post by **Assar** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:31 pm

Ok, Amos, you are saying four things:

First you say that getting new products out on the market will always be prioritized. That is not good news for old customers waiting for a bug fix.

Second, you compare Voyager updates with LPTE bux fix (I guess the Voyager updates wasn't bug fixing, or was it?). Now, I know you plan to fix the bug in the same time as you do a functional update. But I am not asking for a functional update. I want the bug fixed.

Third, you say that the bug fix won't really fix the bug. Just cover it temporarily. It's a good attempt but it leads to the last statement of yours:

Four, you say that the bug is a bug because of hardware mistakes. Mistakes that in my opinion should have discovered on the test board.
From my point of view, that makes Moog a less reliable developer, even if you have good intentions.

Amos, I really like the sound of Moog synths, it's looks and feels. And I think you have very good ambitions. But if it ends up with these two conclusions ...

1. Moog testing isn't reliable
2. Moog isn't prioritizing bug fixing

... it means that bying new Moog products get less interesting.

I think that's sad.

Amos · Post by **Amos** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:31 pm

1) I didn't say anything about what will "always" happen. I only speak about what actually did happen in this specific case. I know we'll try to do better in the future.

2) Yes, there were bugs fixed in each Voyager firmware update. That's why I mentioned it.

3) I think maybe you are too accustomed to the world of digital products, where everything can be changed in software.
If hardware needs to be changed, it's not a "bug fix" - it's a new hardware revision. Expensive, time-consuming, usually takes a lot of people and resources.

4) We've done a hardware revision already, it's the LP Stage. In case you are wondering, it was not possible to do a hardware revision on the Tribute because it was a limited edition; we ordered the full run of 1200 TE boards and then we had to use them. The first chance to do a revised board was with the unlimited SE version, and so we did revise and improve the hardware prior to production.

We can offer you new hardware (LP circuit boards) at a very reasonable price. It isn't free because, again unlike software updates, a hardware upgrade requires real physical stuff which costs us money to manufacture. But we'll give it to you at cost, if you're interested.

You see, our intentions are good, and we do the best we can. We have many happy customers who are enjoying the results of our work. I'm sorry you aren't one of them, and I would like to help in any way I can.

Assar · Post by **Assar** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:08 pm

I was brought up in an analog world, I was 20 before I saw my first PC and my 3 first synths were analog. So let's skip that discussion.

If "bugs" is always digital, what do you call analog malfunctions? Whatever, I'm a musician, not a technician. To me it's a malfunction whatever the correct term is.

Ok, to the real issue ...

Before ordering some new hardware to do major surgery, it is wise to try the sw workaround. Maybe it's good enough? I don't know, I haven't tried it.
But it doesn't seem to happen because we have been waiting for a while by now. And if noone makes a fuzz about it Moog has no commersial driver to do it. That's business.

If I'm a happy customer? I was and I would definitely still have been one if Moog have done something to fix the bug (whatever) earlier. Maybe I'm not all unsatisfied by now, but this is not helping.

This is not personal. This is business.

Voltor07 · Post by **Voltor07** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:13 pm

Wow...Amos, it never ceases to amaze me how supportive Moog is to their customers! It is a pleasure to continue to support such a wonderful company. Thank you for all your efforts! Now, about the black rear panel...can I have one with my original serial number?

(almost forgot my mrgreen).

haiku-ish · Post by **haiku-ish** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:09 am

We can offer you new hardware (LP circuit boards) at a very reasonable price. It isn't free because, again unlike software updates, a hardware upgrade requires real physical stuff which costs us money to manufacture. But we'll give it to you at cost, if you're interested.

yes i'am interested i don't want to wait another year or Two for the OS2
so you can contact me this way.

denoiser · Post by **denoiser** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:06 am

Some fresh news at last. Still getting support, right but...

It's good to know how is the workaround for the hardware disfunction

Probably is a very good one but still to be tested.

Seems no real hardware fix will come

I'm also interested in a whole new circuit board. How much for us?

Amos, I have to ask this. Is there any posibility to somehow free the firmware for the Phatty? I have some experience so I could help. In fact, I think it's a great idea. You have already our money so you have nothing to loose and since it's a different firmware (not much different I guess) there will be no problem. Besides this you can limit the usage of it so we won't use it under your conditions. Amos, this would be really cool

janus · Post by **janus** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:50 am

Hi!

what's about getting a replacement board for european Phatty owners ?

greetings

Roetsj · Post by **Roetsj** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:09 pm

I thought a hardware solution was already available?,changing some component(s) would solve a part of the noise problem and together with the switching of of the EGR would completely eliminate the problem?.
I think that solution will be far more cheaper then replacing complete boards? and it keeps your TE in an original state(RAC of the EGR).

Or am I wrong?.

Voltor07 · Post by **Voltor07** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:22 pm

Roetsj wrote:I thought a hardware solution was already available?,changing some component(s) would solve a part of the noise problem and together with the switching of of the EGR would completely eliminate the problem?.
I think that solution will be far more cheaper then replacing complete boards? and it keeps your TE in an original state(RAC of the EGR).

Or am I wrong?.

Well, you would be correct...except for the fact that it is virtually impossible to replace components on a surface mount board. It requires a lot of skill, a very tiny soldering iron, as well as other special equipment. Replacing the whole board is a much more efficient solution.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:11 pm

I'm not happy about LPTE status, but interested in a hardware board replacement as well and appreciating your supportive attitude, Amos.
Can you email (or board pm) those interested about pricing and procedure, for the case you don't want to discuss details here?

I'm a European customer as well...

haiku-ish · Post by **haiku-ish** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:25 am

we ordered the full run of 1200 TE boards and then we had to use them

you know they were faulty ?

Amos why have you waiting son long to talk about the board replacement ?

• end of LPTE waranty ?
• beacause you did not want to talk about those moog faulty boards ?
• because it will be too expensive to replace it, and it will be better to sell the LPTE and buy a LPstage ?

my TE is on warranty until next april, (i'm european too)
does this board replacement will be covered ?

if not how much ? for the new boar + shipping to europe ?

Assar · Post by **Assar** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:31 am

haiku-ish wrote:
we ordered the full run of 1200 TE boards and then we had to use them
you know they were faulty ?

I did the same reflection.
Did you know they were disfunctional but decided to use them anyway?!?!?