line level and looper pedals

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Rabalder
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line level and looper pedals

Post by Rabalder » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:59 am

I tried the Ditto looper for a short time yesterday, and without paying too much attention it seamed like the looping signal was sort of degraded..(the high frequencies got a bit muffled). I had the looper placed between my phatty and 108.

Does anyone know anything about loopers and line levels?

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stiiiiiiive
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Re: line level and looper pedals

Post by stiiiiiiive » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:33 am

I've used an EHX 2880 with several synths for years and never observed that. However, some loopers have a reduced sample rate or resolution that leads to kind of degraded sound. But I would be surprised if the Ditto is of those.
I would think more of an impedance issue, indeed. You can check on the manual or the specs, I guess.

Rabalder
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Re: line level and looper pedals

Post by Rabalder » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:57 am

Doesnt say anything about impedance in the manual. But I have a reamp lying around somewhere, Ill try that and see if anything changes.
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EMwhite
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Re: line level and looper pedals

Post by EMwhite » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:48 pm

You say that you tried it, was it an old (firmware not updated) or a new model with the updated firmware?

I haven't tried the Ditto but just got rid of the Flashback X4 which had the fundamental Ditto 'in it'. I have the Infinity Looper now; rocketship.

I only used it for Bass, and indeed sometimes it was overdriven bass meaning that sometimes I have a compressor with a boost that blows up my amp front end nicely. Never had any issues.

I can tell you that from a synth perspective this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLioEn3LCEs plays his Minimoog into the X4. TC pedals have plenty of headroom; maybe try and experiment with different output levels to see how it behaves. Those micro pedals (we're spoiled by MoogerFoogers) have zero input gain/attenuation and sometimes not even output controls. (obviously the Ditto has a volume for output and straight pass through for your instrument volume).

But read this thread. Tore replies (back in April 2013) with an issue that MIGHT be what you ran into, that is if the unit you tried has old code on it.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archiv ... 51101.html
'76 Minimoog, Taurus 3, Oberheim FVS + Son of 2-voice; Sequential ProOne; Juno 106; Moog Model 15; Kurzweil 250; Hammond M3; and a handful of Fender Basses Flickr!

Rabalder
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Location: Norway

Re: line level and looper pedals

Post by Rabalder » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:15 pm

Made a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiYHquFsaVc&feature=youtu.be
Phatty :arrow: Ditto :arrow: 102 :arrow: 108
Its quite easy to hear the difference between the recorded and live signal.
If anyone can explain why this is happening please make some noise!!

After I did the video I tried to put a mixer between the phatty and the ditto, and sudddenly it worked fine. (Levels didnt matter before or after..). I dont have a DI-box at the moment, but I suspect that might work as well.
The reamp didnt work at all, only made things worse.

Lately Ive been looking at the infinity looper though. Seems cool, but expencive. Not really sure if I need all the features.
How are you using yours?

EMwhite
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Re: line level and looper pedals

Post by EMwhite » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:25 pm

Rabalder wrote:Made a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiYHquFsaVc&feature=youtu.be
Phatty :arrow: Ditto :arrow: 102 :arrow: 108
Its quite easy to hear the difference between the recorded and live signal.
If anyone can explain why this is happening please make some noise!!

After I did the video I tried to put a mixer between the phatty and the ditto, and sudddenly it worked fine. (Levels didnt matter before or after..). I dont have a DI-box at the moment, but I suspect that might work as well.
The reamp didnt work at all, only made things worse.

Lately Ive been looking at the infinity looper though. Seems cool, but expencive. Not really sure if I need all the features.
How are you using yours?


Let me ask you this: if you take the output of the Phatty and send it into your audio interface them measure a midi recorded sequence or an arpeggio sequence on a VU type meter, then send it through the looper first as bypassed, then as recorded in the Ditto and played back, does it measure as the same level each of the 3 times?

I wonder what position on the volume control on the Ditto is unity-gain and I'm assuming you are keeping the drive knob at the same place on the Fooger?

I didn't see your response to the question about the firmware that is in that Ditto and whether or not what Tore wrote made any sense to you. In short he said depending on the level sensed of the incoming signal, Ditto will process through one A/D or another and the prior firmware was not making the correct decisions.

With regard to the benefits of Infinity. (yeah, it's expensive)

- Midi clock sync; and this is a bit of a misnomer. Some people think this means that you can slow down your clock and the loop will slow down but do time stretching to adjust the pitch and length such that it still makes musical sense; it doesn't do this but it does watch Midi clock from START to STOP, counting ppqn and thereby starting and ending a phrase at a full measure. I use this along with MASCHINE so I have a drum loop going and it's clocked perfectly with a recorded bassline etc.

- Series mode, lets you have two phrases like an A part and a B part and switch between them, each of the two parts can have their own input and output or you can merge; and if used in conjunction with clock sync, you can 'queue' the other part and when the next division comes along it will cleanly switch, staying in perfect time.

- Reverse mode (useless but maybe with the right effects it is something that you might use) which allows you to reverse an entire recorded sample, then make normal again with one footswitch. Strange feature, but accessible through the "R" (ring) of a footswitch on the Undo jack.

And then the typical Undo/Redo business that everybody does. But I think one of the great things is that it uses a standard SD Ram card inside so you can swap in a large one (I think it comes with 8GB) if you need it, you can also hook up USB for transfer to the computer or to load up audio (haven't tried this). Midi is pushed in through Midi DIN.

It has a master volume and one volume for each of the two loop outputs. It's true bypass, and you can use it to split one into two outputs if you want.

The manual is a bit confusing but once you figure out the three or four things you want to do with it, you might like it a lot. It's also super high fidelity, has 10 'slots' for saved loops which are easily selectable and other features which seem very well throughout out. I bought the external footswitch for more immediate control but any TRS dual switch momentary will work. They don't try to rope you into buy a proprietary box like EHX does.

I subsequently bought the Pigtronix "Envelope Phaser" and I'm super impressed with them; the CV capabilities, and the fact that the president of the company offered to walk me through how to mod it for LFO out over the phone.

Loopers are very personal things; Some people like the EHX 2880 because of the 4 track function and that you can can stereo pan each, etc. I used to have an RC-2 then sold it, and got along with the X4's limited looper for a while but this is a keeper for me.

I'm more of a bass player than a keyboard player so like to record loops and accompany myself on various instruments. I'm a frustrated living room musician and only play out when I get together with friends in a Studio in NYC which is just a practice space. Your mileage will certainly vary.

Hope this helps.
'76 Minimoog, Taurus 3, Oberheim FVS + Son of 2-voice; Sequential ProOne; Juno 106; Moog Model 15; Kurzweil 250; Hammond M3; and a handful of Fender Basses Flickr!

Rabalder
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:45 am
Location: Norway

Re: line level and looper pedals

Post by Rabalder » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:20 pm

It actually was a level issue. :roll: Had to turn the volume knob all the way down to nine o'clock.. At twelve o'clock (half way down) the volume was still too hot for the Ditto. I use the volume knob actively when I play, so this sucks big time..
Anyway, thanks for your feedback on the infinity looper! Appreciate it!

In regards to the Ditto, the volume knob goes from 0 to 100%. I tried updating the firmware but it still muffled the sound..

EMwhite
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Re: line level and looper pedals

Post by EMwhite » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:51 pm

Maybe get your hands on a Lehle box from Phatty then split two ways (straight through, and attenuated) and mix back together after the Ditto. Not ideal but it will give you the ability to play AT volume as you desire then send something at somewhat lower volume into the looper.

If you didn't buy this already, maybe see if one of the other loopers work for you. High quality splitters/merger/mixers will cost you as much as the difference between the Ditto and the Infinity (if it works for you in other ways); and being able to have Phatty (assume LP?) generate midi clock or take midi clock from elsewhere will let you lock in nicely.
'76 Minimoog, Taurus 3, Oberheim FVS + Son of 2-voice; Sequential ProOne; Juno 106; Moog Model 15; Kurzweil 250; Hammond M3; and a handful of Fender Basses Flickr!

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