Triggering sub phatty or minitaur with midi bass.

[Viktorvon]

Hello everyone,
I'm am new here and have an important question. I am in love with moogs floor pedals and would Ike to add to my stage setup. I am an electric/upright bassist and love my setup but want gut crushing bass for certain projects that I have. So my plan is this, I just purchased a Roland Gi-20 midi interface that will convert my graphtech modular pick-up system from 13pin to 5pin midi so I can use other products beside roland, like moog synths... Now will it sound/operate the same as a midi keyboard would or even have enough drive to actually open and trigger the gate in the sub phatty or minitaur? (( Sidebar I could add a sustain pedal))??? Or does this just sound ridiculous? I would prefer the sub phatty it has more features (2osc, more waves, patch banks, ect)

[EMwhite]

Not familiar with that Guitar/Midi setup but if it sends standard midi Note commands, you won't have to worry about analog (control voltage) trigger or gate.

Midi messages are composed of the command {NOTE ON} + {NOTE NUMBER} (velocity is embedded)... that opens the gate and the not will sound infinitely
... or until a {NOTE OFF} w/ {NOTE NUMBER} is received at which point the 'gate' will close and release stage begins.

A sustain pedal can be added to carry a note beyond it's note off, or to actuate the last note played but in the case of the Minitaur, a standard sustain pedal (which is usually a normally open switch) will not work. You'll need a switch that pushes a gate and there are some out there. Essentially, it's just +5V to the tip of the gate jack.

Does this make sense? I may not understand the setup or requirements.

[Portamental]

Been there, done that. It won't work... the way you explain it. Pitch and envelope following is serious and challenging business. I am working on my own electronics project to do very similar to what you explain, and do it my way, because I have a few novel ideas on the subject.

There are, however, commercial solutions available right now at very low cost. I think there are a few of those, but the one I am talking about is the Sonuus G2M guitar to midi converter. Mine is an early unit, the newest model is a bass to midi converter. Basically an improved version of the G2M with better pitch tracking of lower frequencies, hence called bass to midi.

Tracking low frequencies is what it is, a very challenging DSP problem that has cracked many heads. I would rate the tracking of pitch of the G2M from low to unacceptable, for performance use. Sonuus now claims improved pitch tracking but that's a sales pitch. From readings, some people are achieving good results they claim, some others still believe it is useless for professional use. Reality probably stands in the middle. A G2M (or B2M) sells for less than $100.

Before midi was born, there was a least one pitch follower that worked very well, the Korg MS-03 (in the 70's). Why have things not improved over the last 40 years. Again... very technical, but my own findings are this: pitch tracking work better on string instruments with flat or dull strings, which yield a more rounded waveform. On bright strings, the content of harmonics and subharmonics messes pitch tracking. The second harmonic on a bright string is often of higher magnitude than the main pitch itself.



This image shows an high E string of a guitar (329 Hz), its second and third harmonic and envelope shapes.

[EMwhite]

What about the old analog boxes like the 360 systems? Always seemed suspect to me (I almost bought one for my bass but resisted!).

I dumped my FreqBox because it was so glitchy that I ended up using it only as an additional Oscillator and eventually traded it for a SSL1200.

How is it that some of the octave generators track perfectly and others not so much. The example I'll give is the EXH MicroPog. Perhaps it's really just operating in the audio range and dividing the frequency that way vs. trying to determine pitch of a very complex signal.

One thing I found with FreqBox was that if you send in a perfectly conditioned (compressed, etc) that it make a huge difference, and of course if you feed it a synth wave it alsow worked well; anything else, forget it.

I almost bought one of the B2Ms but as you wrote, there were only so-so reviews of it. For $99, there isn't much risk but it would seem to be more of a novelty item.

[Portamental]

I dumped my FreqBox because it was so glitchy that I ended up using it only as an additional Oscillator

One thing I found with FreqBox was that if you send in a perfectly conditioned (compressed, etc) that it make a huge difference, and of course if you feed it a synth wave it alsow worked well; anything else, forget it.

How is it that some of the octave generators track perfectly and others not so much. The example I'll give is the EXH MicroPog. Perhaps it's really just operating in the audio range and dividing the frequency that way vs. trying to determine pitch of a very complex signal.

Freqbox : Yep, pretty much the same. I only used it with a guitar but not with a bass. The lower the frequency, the worse the tracking. Dull strings helps.

I use the EHX Hog once in a while, tracks not too bad, but not quite as I wish. Again dull strings. I find the Pog tracks a bit better. Less complex electronics I would say.

The Sonuus is not entirely horrible, it's a lot a fun.

In all cases, I use them only once in a while. People that work them a lot get better results. Just like a guitar, the more you play.

The problem with tracking pitch is not the frequency per say, it's the envelopes. The problem is more acute with the Sonuus device since it generates a midi note and a note length (gate). The difference in amplitude upon playing dynamics makes it go all over the place.

The Freqbox and the Hog are working with continuous envelopes, so that's a bit better.

The envelope follower I have the most experience with is the MF-101. Early on, i did not like the envelopes much, but I have gotten much better over time using it. It's pretty good. Big big difference from one guitar to the next (strings, pickup) and the way you play the guitar. The main problem with the MF-101 is that it does not have a pitch follower, so the cut-off frequency must be adjusted when you play the low end and go to high end. A synthesizer has keyboard tracking (or voltage actually). It is thus able to adjust cut-off frequency according to pitch played, without a pitch follower.

The DSP problems are the same for all devices. Put more money, more research, more computing power to the task and you get better results. That's what the LEV-96 is all about and it does seem to deliver.

Of course DSP is not the only way, there is discrete electronics, I am working on that. Come to think of it, I do have a Korg MS-20 whose audio processing section has both a pitch and envelope follower. I sure did not explore it enough. I will.

[ricknboogie]

Speaking as a guy who is a bass player FIRST, and been through a thousand variations on exploring "synth-bass", my final solution was to play synth with keyboards. The MIDI pickups are ok, but tracking is always an issue, and using filters, octaves, fuzz, and modulation effects boxes with a bass guitar will only get you so far. Even Moog's fooger pedals are of little use when combined with a bass guitar. So, I play bass guitar with a bass guitar, and even though I still have a fairly large pedalboard, my synth sounds are all done with keyboards. I wish you luck in this endeavor, but suggest the keyboard approach as a good solution.