Reproduce a sound you hear???

Lania · Post by **Lania** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:48 pm

As I lost a few sounds, I was wondering if some of you could help me with this. I recorded one of the sounds I created. Is it possible for someone to reproduce the sound by only hearing it?

Find the mp3 below:
Carbon

I just remember using preset 24=CLASSIC S N H.

Anyone?

Thanks!

Lania · Post by **Lania** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:44 pm

So I just read that Amos is handy with this in the "Happy Friday" topic!
Amos, please help!

dave500 · Post by **dave500** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:05 pm

Oh yes Amos is the man

Amos · Post by **Amos** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:24 am

Hi Lania,
I'll give this a try later today!

Also, regarding your sysex problem, are you trying to do the sysex transfer within Cakewalk, or are you using a program like MIDI-Ox or SysEx Librarian?

Lania · Post by **Lania** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:38 pm

Hey Amos,

Thanks for your reply.
I transfer the sysex within Cakewalk. It's as if it works fine (the size of the sysex is as it should be) but the preset does not sound as the one I transferred. Also, when I store a preset, I have the same thing: it does not sound like the patch I created.
I just hope I'm just doing something wrong. Surely don't like the idea of a malfunctioning device...

Amos · Post by **Amos** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:08 am

For saving and loading patches, I recommend you use a dedicated sysex program, as I don't know how Cakewalk handles these files. Perhaps you need to play them back at a certain tempo, for example... perhaps try a slower tempo for this. But better still, try SysEx Librarian for Macintosh, or Midi-Ox for PC.

Meanwhile, I am working on that sound. Nice one! It's very rich and detailed; not an easy one to recreate. There's some interesting pitch modulation on the first note, a sort of downward sweep... is that part of the patch, or is it being done via MIDI? And do you recall if the mod wheel was up for this recording?

Thanks for the challenging request.

Amos · Post by **Amos** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:34 am

OK Lania, try this one! It's not perfect but it should be a good place for you to start. The key is that there is a lot of filter resonance but the envelope pushes the cutoff frequency so high it sounds like the filter is wide open with no resonance, until the Release stage where you get the resonant chirp as the cutoff falls back into the audible range. That, plus Osc2 tuned up a fifth, and lots of Overload. Fun!

Carbon01.syx

Lania · Post by **Lania** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:00 am

Wow! Cool Amos!

I’m not at home right now so I cannot test the SysEx.
Wow! I understand why I was unable to reproduce it… I did not register which values I changed…
The part you could hear on the mp3 was played back from Cakewalk. At the end of the first note I used the pitch bend wheel with a sensibility -12!
I tried to recreate it but it did not sound as full as it is in the sample. I’m really exited. I can’t wait to finish my song Carbon! I’ll post it when I’m done.

About my SysEx transfer problem: Cakewalk has it’s own SysEx function. It’s completely dedicated to SysEx’s. I prepare the transfer from Cakewalk, and then I activate the transfer from the LP. I can clearly see the transfer happening and the size of the final data. Anyway, I’ll try Midi-Ox just to be sure. I’ll download it from the link you provided me.

Thanks for everything! I appreciate!

Amos · Post by **Amos** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:04 pm

OK, I just updated my instructions for how to use Midi-Ox to manage presets on the Little Phatty. I was going to send this as a private message, but perhaps other people will read this and appreciate it also.

to save patches from the Little Phatty:

hook up a MIDI cable from the MIDI OUT on the Little Phatty to the MIDI IN on your computer (or whatever kind of MIDI interface you have hooked up to the computer).
If you haven't set up MidiOX already, go to the Options menu and click "Midi Devices."
in the MIDI devices window, click and highlight the correct input and output device.

This tells MidiOx what to use for sending and receiving. (Then click OK)

OK, now that MidiOx is set up, click on the View menu and choose SysEx.
A window will pop up called "SysEx view and scratchpad."
click on the Sysex menu in this window, and choose "Receive Manual Dump."
Now MidiOx is waiting for you to send something from the Little Phatty.

On the LP, press the Master button and then use the Value knob to scroll to the SysEx Menu.
you can use the Cursor button and Value knob to select different options on the SysEx menu.
Send Cur Preset sends only the currently-active patch, Send All Presets sends all 100 presets as one single bank file.
for the first time, I recommend sending the whole bank just so you have a backup copy of it on your computer.
when you have Send all presets selected, hit Enter, and you should start to see some data coming in on the computer screen. The Little Phatty will display the message "Sending All Presets."
When this message dissapears and the SysEx Menu is displayed again, the LIttle Phatty is done sending data. Click the "Done" button in MidiOx.
Now all the data is shown in the Display window, and it needs to be saved.
To save the data, click on the "Display window" menu in the Sysex view, and choose Save As.
Name the file and choose where you want to save it, just like you would in any Windows program. Ta-daa! done. This same process works if you are sending only a single preset (SEND CUR PRESET on the LP SysEx Menu). If you are sending only a single preset, it's a good idea to save the sysex file using the same name as the preset, so you can identify it easily.

To send patches to the Little Phatty from your computer:

You must (of course) connect a cable from the MIDI OUT on your computer to the MIDI IN jack on your Little Phatty.

Be aware that if you are sending a single preset, it will automatically replace whatever preset is currently active on your Little Phatty. So, before you send a preset as a sysEx file from your computer to the Little Phatty, go to Preset mode on the Little Phatty and use the Value knob to select the preset which you wish to replace.

In MidiOx, go back to the Sysex view window (View menu + choose Sysex, if you just opened the program)
Click on File and choose Send Sysex File.
select the sysex file you want to send, and hit OK.

The Little Phatty LCD display will show "Receiving Preset" very briefly, and then you should see the new preset displayed on the Little Phatty LCD. If you are sending a bank of all patches, the transfer will take slightly longer and all 100 presets in the Little Phatty will be replaced by the presets from the SysEx file.

Lania · Post by **Lania** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:17 pm

WOW!!! This is amazing!!!
The carbon patch sounds big! Almost as the one I created!!!
I am blown away!!!
GREAT! GREAT! GREAT!

By the way, I had no trouble sending the SysEx from Cakewalk to the LP. Just for the test, I sent it back to the LP on another location. Still working fine. So I don't know what I was doing wrong all that time but I WAS really doing something wrong.

I downloaded Midi-Ox. Seems like a really great software. It works nicely. My hardware is correctly recognized and the LP sends out without any problems. I'll surely use this program because it has a lot of extra's.

So now that I have this base from you, I'll try to adjust it a little bit and of course save the work!!! I'll try to finish the song Carbon and post it in the dedicated topic.

Thanks again!

MichaelPeterTrowbridge · Post by **MichaelPeterTrowbridge** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:10 pm

Hello

Wanted to ask how you analyse/reproduce sounds? Do you use a standard procedure? Where do you start?

It's difficult to formulate this question, but I hope you understand what I mean;-)

If It helps I could also give an example of a sound I'd want to reproduce and we could go step by step through it...

There should be a thread about sound reproductions of songs/tunes...

PHC · Post by **PHC** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:14 pm

Try Welsh Synthesizer Cookbook (use google)
Good basics od subtractive syntesis + sound analysis (harmonic analysis software included on the CD)

boose44 · Post by **boose44** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:16 am

Agree with the Cookbook by Fred Welsh. A great place to start and 19.95 well spent.

http://www.synthesizer-cookbook.com

-bruce

Amos · Post by **Amos** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:02 pm

That book is an excellent place to start.

My basic procedure is pretty simple; of course the more you know about the synth you are using and its various tricks, the easier it is to get specific sounds... but in general, I do the following:

1) load a default preset with filter all the way open, envelopes set to 0/0/max/0 (ADSR), and only one oscillator turned up in the mixer.

2) adjust the oscillator waveform to match the basic harmonic character of the sound in question. If it is a multi-oscillator sound, try to distinguish between the dominant tone and any additional oscillators; first adjust the waveform of oscillator 1 to match the dominant tone of the sound you are trying to emulate, and then adjust the volume level, frequency offset and waveform of additional oscillators as needed.

3) adjust the filter settings (cutoff, resonance, and [important!] number of filter poles) to get closer to the desired sound.

4) once the basic filter settings are decided, last I adjust the envelopes to give the correct evolution of the sound over time. Usually there is some back-and-forth between the filter envelope and the other filter settings at this point.

That's a rough overview... to recap, first get the most broad matching between the harmonic content of the oscillator waveforms and the sound you are trying to emulate, then use the filter to refine the harmonic content, then adjust the envelopes to match how your reference sound behaves over time as notes are played. Simple! (eventually)

GregAE · Post by **GregAE** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:14 pm

Amos wrote:of course the more you know about the synth you are using and its various tricks, the easier it is to get specific sounds...

Amos is quite correct, and it's a point that should be stressed here. Perhaps more than anything else, you must really get to know your instrument - it's strengths, it's limitations, and it's quirks (all synths have 'em) to become really effective at programming it. General guidelines are fine, and we all use them to program sounds, but it's worth noting that the true standout patches are programmed by those who have taken the time to really learn the gear.

As the saying on the t-shirt goes: "Presets are for the weak". On the back of the shirt it should also read "Know thine instrument!"

Moog Music Forum

Reproduce a sound you hear???

Reproduce a sound you hear???

Da Man

Da Man indeed!