About noise and hissing

Everything Phatty.
respirer
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About noise and hissing

Post by respirer » Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:03 am

I have some thoughts about the noise/hissing from the Little Phatty when pressing down the keyboard, especially in low frequencies bass-sounds or with the oscillators set to zero. Although I know this has been discussed in other posts I would still like to have a couple of questions answered.

First of all, do you all have it? Although I've read that it is a common thing for analog equipment and should be expected, can you all hear it on your phattys? Try nr 17 (dr bass) of the presets for instance, can you all hear a hissing/humming together with the bass-sound when you press down the key? When you turn down the oscillators, do you hear it? Try using the mod-wheel on the noise, does it change character? If someone can't hear it (and listen closely because it tuck me a couple of hours before I noticed what it was people where talking about), post about not hearing it to.

If I put the osciallators to zero and turn up some filters and the overload I hear artifacts of the real sound and when I crank the up the overload further I can acctually produce a tone, with the oscillators set to zero... is this normal? Can you all do that?

And the last thing I would like to know is. What is it that i'm hearing? Anyone who is good at the technical side of things who could give me answears? Is there anyone from Moog Music on the forum who could explain? (I had thoughts about giving them a call but don't wan't to bother if it's just normal analog behaviour).

Ok, I'm new to analog synthesizers and and can't say that this things really disturbs me alot. If it's a part of the Phattys sound I think it's ok, although not what I expected. I think the Little Phatty in general is amazing and sounds superb, I just wanted to check that everything is working as it should. I'm living in Sweden so it would be quite a big deal to send it in for service. So if you have the time to reassure a newbie I would be most grateful. :-)
Last edited by respirer on Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

rachel
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Post by rachel » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:43 am

I think the output gain of the LP is very hot. This is a good thing. It sends out a very punchy
signal. Because there is a VCA in there, you are always bound to get a little noise in there.
All analogue synths do it. Overall, I think the LP has a very good signal to noise ratio!
(at least mine does)


rachel

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Post by geoscience » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:49 am

Rachel,

I believe the noise that is being talked about is a digital hiss that is bleeding into the analouge signal path. This is not a good thing and will hopefully be improved upon with future OS updates. For me personally, I am not happy with it, but will live with it as I know the Phatty is going through growing pains as this synth is being developed. The noise is actually quite high in pitch and I am surprised more people are not talking about it!

respirer
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Post by respirer » Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:21 am

It is not a really loud noise but it's there and noticable. I've also heard this about OS updates fixing it. So technically speaking, what i'm hearing is digital bleed noise? What will the OS update do to fix this? Once again, i'm quite interested in what it is that is happening technically, i've heard some rumours and speculations but there must be someone out there who has the facts.

But sure, loud and noisy oscillators is a part of what I like with the analog experience and I want to hear the VCO roar when I open the gate. And the Phatty gives me alot of that... ;-)

rg
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Post by rg » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:44 pm

Yeah... It's a concern because its easy to hear with the oscillators turned down... But if the oscillators are turned up... I can't help but think that it is muddying up the sound with digital noise somewhat too...

divot
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Post by divot » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:20 pm

I definitely have it on my unit - pretty quiet noise that's gated by key presses (i.e. it isn't there when no keys are depressed). It sounds digital, and the pitch of the noise occasionally takes a little step up or down suddenly - sometimes seemingly randomly, sometimes coinciding with me pressing a button - some crosstalk from the digital control circuitry? Anyway, it's only audible when the filter is really cut off, and in a high-order config like 4-pole.

I believe that Moog will sort it out, so I'm very happy with the Little Phatty.

Also, I have to say that the silence from its output when no keys are pressed is nothing short of *amazing* - I've had analogues before, but nothing this quiet. So powerful!

I also *love* the user interface, the simplicity of it, the programmability of the filter slope, the programmability of the knob response, the sound, the look, the feel of it...

What a keyboard. Thank you MA and all @ Moog, thanks Bob...

d

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goldphinga
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Post by goldphinga » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:39 pm

It WILL be sorted by firmware. believe
Moog Gear: Voyager AE,LP Stage 2+CV outs (Blue LED's/Wheels, MF104SD, MF101 Filter, MF103 Phaser, Source, Memorymoog+, Minitaur.

geoscience
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Post by geoscience » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:42 pm

-for me the sound sticks out and is very noticable in the bass patches. I tend to make alot of quiet ambient music - so for me it is a bigger problem...

synthpimp
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Post by synthpimp » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:16 am

See my thread titled "What is that noise?" Amos chimes in on the subject.

I believe firmware v1.03 addresses the digital hash issue however I'm curious as to what hardware changes were also made in the upcoming Stage Edition.

Amos
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Post by Amos » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:33 am

Hi all,

we are still working on this... I think we have a decent solution now but due to time constraints (and the fact that our software development team is essentially two people, three if you count me as the tester) it will probably not be implemented until after NAMM. That's not long though, so thanks for your good attitude and know that help is on the way. :)

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Post by Khoral » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:14 am

A question to Amos... is an update on that buzz (which I'm having) still due?
Right now I'm using the EGR Matrix OFF trick to get rid of the distracting buzz/hiss sound, but it'd be cool in the next OS update to have it removed without losing the EGR Matrix (regardless of the pot map solution).
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robles
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Post by robles » Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:44 am

There is no firmware fix for the problem. The RAC scanning of the knob positions in Amp EG section was causing the noise. They avoided this in the Stage Edition by simply not using RAC for the Amp EG. The Stage Edition Amp EG is strictly midi, then gets converted to CV. No direct analog control for the Amp EG. Unlike the tribute. :D

I'll stand the hiss, especially if I can turn it off, as long as I can get real analog when I need it. I know I'm an analog snob, but when I buy analog, I want analog.

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Post by Amos » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:29 pm

Our engineers are still looking at this situation and are making progress. I had a good conversation with Cyril about it just this past week.

The hardware and firmware are interacting very closely, and the sounds you are hearing can't be said to be due only to the firmware, or entirely to the hardware. We are looking at the best ways to work with the hardware and the firmware together to get the best possible sound.

More info when I have it... thanks, all. :)

-Amos

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Post by Khoral » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:24 am

All right.... it's not that big a deal, I just switch EGR Matrix on and off whenever I want to edit the envelope, but of course it'd be more convenient to avoid that
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rg
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idea?

Post by rg » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:08 pm

Why not just make it so that the scanning stays turned off but when a knob turn is detected he scanning turns back on... And when it stops... the scanning turns off again...? automatically...

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