ATTN: experienced DAW and MIDI users! Sub37 sequencer
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:30 pm
Hi all, I need to ask a question of the Moog brain trust (meaning all you smart users out there).
Using the sequencer or arpeggiator in conjunction with a DAW is a bit complicated.
There are a number of use cases... do you want to play on the physical Sub 37 keys to trigger the arp or sequencer, or do you want to trigger the sequencer in response to MIDI from your DAW or from a different controller?
Do you want to record the MIDI output of the sequencer and play it back? In that case, on playback you would want the sequencer to be OFF, or at least you'd want the Sub 37 to only play the actual MIDI notes you are sending it (since it's already a recording of the sequence).
Or, do you want to record as MIDI only the notes that control the sequencer... in which case the sequencer must listen to incoming MIDI for control... and do you only want the synth to play the sequence internally, or do you also want it to output MIDI notes?
In the last case (sequencer is controlled by external MIDI, and sequencer is outputting MIDI notes), you have to be careful not to loop or "echo" MIDI coming out of the Sub37 back to its own MIDI input... which is something that tends to happen by default any time you are recording! (this is why Local Off exists).
So in short, there are a lot of different things you could be trying to do, when it comes to working with the sequencer and MIDI and your DAW software.
So my question is, are you actually doing any of these things? If so, how do you do it? Do you run into any problems that need to be fixed?
Help me out, please.
What I am thinking I need to add is two parameters:
"sequencer control" [local, MIDI, both] - is the sequencer "listening to" the local keyboard, incoming MIDI notes, or both, for control purposes.
"sequencer output" [local, MIDI, both] - when the sequencer is running, is it playing the actual synth, or just outputting MIDI notes, or both?
However this still does not cover all the cases exactly... for it may be the case that you want the sequencer to output MIDI notes in response to local keys, but not to output MIDI notes in response to MIDI notes. This is because of the MIDI-loop on recording situation... if the Sub 37 MIDI output is being sent back to its own MIDI input, and if the arp is generating MIDI output in response to MIDI input... then you have a feedback loop and it's going to be horrible and wrong.
The main thing I want to avoid is for people who don't know what they are doing to get into trouble. Folks who have never had a hardware synth before are going to get a sub37, plug it into Live and hit Record on a MIDI channel, and they will have a MIDI loop and not know it. Happens every day. The problem is that a strictly correct MIDI implementation lets you do this and gives bad results (because really, you should never loop MIDI output back to input while local control is turned on, it's an invalid configuration. But it's the default thing that everyone does.)
So again, do you have personal hands-on experience with using the Sub 37 sequencer in conjunction with Live or Logic or Cubase or any other DAW?
Your feedback on how it works and what if any changes are needed, would be very helpful. Thanks!
Amos
Using the sequencer or arpeggiator in conjunction with a DAW is a bit complicated.
There are a number of use cases... do you want to play on the physical Sub 37 keys to trigger the arp or sequencer, or do you want to trigger the sequencer in response to MIDI from your DAW or from a different controller?
Do you want to record the MIDI output of the sequencer and play it back? In that case, on playback you would want the sequencer to be OFF, or at least you'd want the Sub 37 to only play the actual MIDI notes you are sending it (since it's already a recording of the sequence).
Or, do you want to record as MIDI only the notes that control the sequencer... in which case the sequencer must listen to incoming MIDI for control... and do you only want the synth to play the sequence internally, or do you also want it to output MIDI notes?
In the last case (sequencer is controlled by external MIDI, and sequencer is outputting MIDI notes), you have to be careful not to loop or "echo" MIDI coming out of the Sub37 back to its own MIDI input... which is something that tends to happen by default any time you are recording! (this is why Local Off exists).
So in short, there are a lot of different things you could be trying to do, when it comes to working with the sequencer and MIDI and your DAW software.
So my question is, are you actually doing any of these things? If so, how do you do it? Do you run into any problems that need to be fixed?
Help me out, please.
What I am thinking I need to add is two parameters:
"sequencer control" [local, MIDI, both] - is the sequencer "listening to" the local keyboard, incoming MIDI notes, or both, for control purposes.
"sequencer output" [local, MIDI, both] - when the sequencer is running, is it playing the actual synth, or just outputting MIDI notes, or both?
However this still does not cover all the cases exactly... for it may be the case that you want the sequencer to output MIDI notes in response to local keys, but not to output MIDI notes in response to MIDI notes. This is because of the MIDI-loop on recording situation... if the Sub 37 MIDI output is being sent back to its own MIDI input, and if the arp is generating MIDI output in response to MIDI input... then you have a feedback loop and it's going to be horrible and wrong.
The main thing I want to avoid is for people who don't know what they are doing to get into trouble. Folks who have never had a hardware synth before are going to get a sub37, plug it into Live and hit Record on a MIDI channel, and they will have a MIDI loop and not know it. Happens every day. The problem is that a strictly correct MIDI implementation lets you do this and gives bad results (because really, you should never loop MIDI output back to input while local control is turned on, it's an invalid configuration. But it's the default thing that everyone does.)
So again, do you have personal hands-on experience with using the Sub 37 sequencer in conjunction with Live or Logic or Cubase or any other DAW?
Your feedback on how it works and what if any changes are needed, would be very helpful. Thanks!
Amos