Disappointed in the Theremini

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plehrman
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:00 pm

Disappointed in the Theremini

Post by plehrman » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:18 pm

I've had a Big Briar Theremin for about 15 years, and was never particularly happy with it, as it was unstable and the cabinetry was not very solid. But it's been a good teaching tool. So I was excited when the Theremini came out, especially because I was looking to use it as a live-performance MIDI controller.

It's great on its own--it arrived two hours before the Halloween trick-or-treaters started coming to the house, and took no time to set up, so it was fun to use it to scare the little ones and intrigue the older ones--but as a MIDI controller it leaves a lot to be desired. It only generates controller data, based on proximity to the two antennas. The original Ethervox theremin did this almost 20 years ago--I would think we've come a long way since then. I mean, I could build a device that does this with two infrared or ultrasonic sensors and an Arduino for about $35.

There's a lot of intelligence within the Theremini: the pitch quantization algorithm is terrific, and the scale and range choices are very useful. Some of that intelligence is used to generate the CV output, so why can't it be used to generate more useful MIDI output? For example, a note-on could be sent whenver a pitch-change threshold is crossed, with the velocity (optionally) based on the left-hand position. Varying degrees of pitch bend could be generated using the same logic and control as the pitch quantization function.
I can't imagine this would require much more complex programming than is already in there. You'd need another setup screen or two to control the MIDI functions, but that shouldn't be a big deal.

So how about it?

Paul Lehrman, PhD
Director of Music Engineering
Tufts University
(and a Moog user since 1971)

synthguy
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:37 pm

Re: Disappointed in the Theremini

Post by synthguy » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:35 am

Hi Paul:
Lots of people have requested the ability to transmit Midi note numbers (including me) and I'm guessing that this will show up as one of the features added through a firmware upgrade at some point in the future.
If you've got an older synth you can use the CV out drive the oscillator pitch. And if the pitch correction is turned on, this voltage can be externally scaled to get a synth to track it over 6+ octaves. Sounds pretty good. The CCs can also be routed to pitch on some synths, but this is more of an unscaled kind of effect in most cases (can sound interesting if the oscillators are synced).

I get the feeling that there's a lot more cool stuff in store for this guy from our friends at Moog.
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rkram53
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:41 pm

Re: Disappointed in the Theremini

Post by rkram53 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:14 pm

Hey Paul,
I agree with Synthguy. The Theremini is an instrument with a huge upside potential being mostly digital and firmware updates can add a lot of functions in the future.

And though your note says "disappointed", you actually praise quite a few things.
I think all us Theremini enthusiasts need to reinforce the positives and give Moog constructive criticism as to what features to add in firmware upgrades.
They are listening and want the Theremini to be as successful as we do.

If you run a music electronics lab, perhaps for now you just run it through a CV-to-MIDI converter if you have one. I just ordered one myself for this and other things (hope it works)

Rich

peterdavidson
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:41 am

Re: Disappointed in the Theremini

Post by peterdavidson » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:56 am

Hi There, im new with the theremini, and was very excited to see the promotion of this unit claiming Midi in and Out, as it is, there is USB, but it does not function as a midi-controller (as any 20 dollar midi-keyboard can) and that is very disappointing indeed, and frankly not appropriate marketing.. but ok, if this is fixed in new firmware. im alright with this if it doesnt take too long and doesn´t mean big bucks for something that should be within the product already. secondly i would like to see a variable length in note-distance since they are very tight, and more usable sounds, as it is half of them are ok, and im sure there can be much done on the soundpatches, a human voice or 3 would be cool. Kind Regards /Peter

synthguy
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:37 pm

Re: Disappointed in the Theremini

Post by synthguy » Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:28 am

Hi Peter:
The Theremini has both Midi In and Out, and has since it was released. That's part of what the USB is about. I use it with an IPad, although it will also appear us a USB Midi device on a Windows or OSX machine as well.
What exactly are you expecting it to do that it doesn't? Maybe I can help find a solution for you....

As far as human voices, it's a wavetable type synth instead of a sampler, which tends to make different types of sounds, although one of the contributors here has already made a patch that sounds quite good as a voice in a musical context!

The note distance is completely customizable by you during the calibration sequence. This sets the working space between the lowest and highest note produced, and the low and high note settings in the editor determine how many notes fit in this space, so you have total control over how the Theremini responds when you play it!

The new firmware adds lots of new stuff, and will be free, as far as I know.
If you have an IPad, there is a free editor that lets you make, name and save your own sounds, and a version of this for Windows and OSX should be available soon as well.
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peterdavidson
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:41 am

Re: Disappointed in the Theremini

Post by peterdavidson » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:29 pm

Hello synthguy, and thanks for the reply, well you are probably right in an Ipad sense, i use win 8.1- and my initial request was simply to be able to use the Theremini controlling virtual synths, and without too much hassle having them responding to notes played with the theremini as controller.
so im not interested in certain cc controls for just a filter or such.. i want melodic events on softsynths to follow what i do on the Theremini .. A friend suggested sonuus g2m as a solution, with audio in and midi out from that box and it can be used for guitar microphone etc. so maybe ill look into that, while update of firmware is in the pipelines. Kindly /Peter

rkram53
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:41 pm

Re: Disappointed in the Theremini

Post by rkram53 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:22 pm

And it's very easy to get different distances (i.e. to expand) between "notes". Just scale your Theremini for a lesser range and recalibrate to your body and the pitch field will expand from note to note. In fact, when I am playing melodically I typically set it to a three octave range as most melodies typically don't go much past that - and even a four octave range is quite playable (as a Theremin). But if you set it to a very large range (you can go up to 8 octaves!), you are going to have very little room between notes especially in the upper range. And remember the Theremin patch they use is actually transposed +12 which compresses the field for that patch a bit (but you can adjust it in the editor app).

I've also run it through my CV to MIDI converter and I've been able to play other MIDI synths that way. The 1/V per octave NOTE CV function coming out in the new firmware will easily let you play CV controlled devices in a configurable range.

Rich

peterdavidson
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:41 am

Re: Disappointed in the Theremini

Post by peterdavidson » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:05 pm

Hi Rich, and thanks for your reply, i will look into the setting suggestions. as it is, i will await the update for succesful midi, since im a win user..
apart from the midi squabble.. i think it´s a fantastic machine. and i have wanted to try a theremin ever since age 13, when i first started out making music. here´s my first attempt..happy holidays and all /Peter https://soundcloud.com/peterdavidson/oceania-2-theremix

synthguy
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:37 pm

Re: Disappointed in the Theremini

Post by synthguy » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:21 pm

Hi Peter:
If you're only interested in controlling softsynths, it looks like the Sonuus i2M converter might be a better choice, since it already has a USB output to genereate Midi directly to your computer without having to re-convert it through a Midi interface. These look like interesting boxes, and not too expensive, either.

Currenly the Theremini does not send out Midi note info over Midi, and the new firmware release won't change that, although this may be addressed with a future firmware uprade. There's been a lot of interest in this, and I imagine it's stll in discussion at Moog.

By the way, really liked the Theremini-ing on your Oceania tune. Many great ideas in this forum!

One potential pitfall I see as I was thinking about the audio to Midi converters is that they might be fooled by more harmonically rich waveforms, and have a problem figuring out what the right pitch is sometimes. For instance, the Animoog 1 wavetable undergoes some fairly radical change as it sweeps from one end of the table to the other, and this might cause some problems (OR It might make a really cool and unexpected sound!). I saw a youtube video of a guy demonstrating the tracking ability of the Sonuus with a guitar, and he was feeding it a signal from his mixer with the mids and treble rolled down to help improve the tracking.
Hmmm... :?
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rkram53
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:41 pm

Re: Disappointed in the Theremini

Post by rkram53 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:52 pm

Peter,
Great composition. How many lines in there are the Theremini? You can't the that disappointed if you can create something like this in such a short time.

So here's what I do to convert Theremini note data to MIDI. It's not ideal unless you have a Eurorack modular and $$, but it is useful for a lot of things with the modular - for example I also use this technique to create MIDI output from a Wogglebug (basically a souped up random voltage generator if you don't know it) to feed the MIDI output back into the modular MIDI interface or run it to a MIDI switch to control synths, etc).

I run a line from the Theremini CV out to a Doepfer A-192-2 CV-to-MIDI converter. It actually has two separate interfaces for this. And it outputs to both MIDI DIN and MIDI USB ports (so I also can use it for a generic converter here too if I need to go from MIDI DIN to USB). It also has 5-pin MIDI Input which merges MIDI IN with CV-MIDI to both of the MIDI outs - again a great little port converter.

Now the new Theremini firmware has a CV NOTE option that outputs 1/V octave CV data (in addition to current pitch and volume data). But NOTE CV is more useful as you can sync up standard tuned melodic material (at least for me its more useful).

Unfortunately, the Theremini has no CV Gate out which I need to gate the MIDI notes on the Doepfer. So if I want some sequenced like MIDI from the Theremini I'll just run a clock source to the Doepfer. Can do all kinds of nice things that way. If I want to play notes, I'll run a gating voltage from one of my modular sources to a foot pedal that can switch on and off (I think Synthguy gave me that idea). The Doepfer can also take in MIDI velocity/volume and MIDI CC inputs as well (haven't used those yet). I need to experiment with other gating methods maybe turning a Theremini CC into a gate somehow.

I tried a software line-to-MIDI converter but it was lousy. I kind of agree with Synthguy that that little $99 line-to-MIDI converter is going to have issues (I saw that too and it looked interesting - but I went with the Doepfer solution). Maybe there are other CV to MIDI converters out there that can do a similar job. But the Doepfer seems to work well for me. I'm sure there's a lot more I can do with it. A very useful module.

http://www.doepfer.de/a1922.htm

Rich

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