Crossing the Steams - Joining the Digital And Analogue World

[Lux_Seeker]

For a while now, I have been thinking about how to join the digital and analogue worlds. All to often, digital and analogue become different camps. Musicans and composers tend to believe that one or the other is better. The truth is that they are just different tools to get different types of sounds and there are ways to joing them.

There are a number of MIDI to CV convertors out there and some CV to MIDI convertors but unfortuntely not all that many of those - for reasons I don't quit understand.

One of the software synthesizer that I am a big fan of is Absynth and I have been thinking about ways to join my Moogerfoofers and Absyth. For example, Absynth has great envelopes. I thought, wouldn't it be nice to use these to control foogers? An easy way to do that is to simple create a sin wave to a foogers audio and those that have envelope outs, will create an envelope based on whatever amplitude envelope is in Absynth.

Apparently, according to a post here, even Absynth audio at low frequency can be sent into Absynth as a CV (at high enough volume).

I just thought of this one today. Absynth envelopes can be controlled by MIDI CCs. the MP 201 pedal can't send out both MIDI CCs and CVs simultaneously. This can control and Absynth envelope which can then be send back to control foogers so you get a complex envelope generator for foogers.

Anyway, I am kind of just brainstorming here but when you start thinking out of the box on these thinks new avenues of possiblities open up.

[EricK]

You can't cross the streams, LS, all life as you know it stopps instantaneously and every molecule in your body explodes at the speed of light.

[mayidunk]

You can't cross the streams, LS, all life as you know it stopps instantaneously and every molecule in your body explodes at the speed of light.

Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Erick.

[EricK]

My partner Gabe, (The other .5 of the Rhythmicons) uses mostly Reason for sequences, and then Quantum Leap for string samples. Im not sure exactly what typed of interfaces are necessary because I bought all of the hardware and he got all the software, and we put our creations together that way, but Im going to do some research and seewhat would be some good devices and get back with you.


Eric

[soundxplorer]

For example, Absynth has great envelopes. I thought, wouldn't it be nice to use these to control foogers? An easy way to do that is to simple create a sin wave to a foogers audio and those that have envelope outs, will create an envelope based on whatever amplitude envelope is in Absynth.

I've done the Envelope Follower trick you mention and it does work, but my problem was it took up an entire module (either the MF-107 or MF-101) to generate the envelope signal, so I couldn't use that module for anything else. I wound up buying a few Eurorack modules to cover MIDI and envelopes. I like running sequenced things through an envelope follower, like stuff out of my Electribes.

With the 2600v I used in the video example you can route an envelope straight into the outputs. The only problem is my PC interface is not DC coupled so envelope signals don't come out properly. One of the newer MOTU interfaces would probably work fine for envelopes coming out of the 2600v, even without the Volta software.

Which Moogerfoogers do you have Lux?

[_DemonDan_]

For a while now, I have been thinking about how to join the digital and analogue worlds.

Hi Lux_Seeker,

I too believe in the beauty of sonically blending various synthesis methods.

I know you're probably hip to these, but here are three of the many ways I'd try this:

MP-201's MIDI ->CV (Do you have one of these yet?)

MOTU's Volta:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyHtyylDmJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cz0QHvkO2U

Then there's the Doepfer Dark Energy, which can send simultaneous multiple
CVs from MIDI messages via MIDI or USB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLs6XQxO6uE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytuBi9tjr7E

You can send the audio out of your digital synths into your 'foogers and use MIDI to
simultaneously control both the digital synths and the various parameters of the 'foogers.

MIDI ->CV is particularly powerful when used to dictate the Frequency of the
oscillator in the FreqBox when it's set to Sync.

[varice]

I have crossed the analog and digital worlds to merge the best of both. I modified my Nord Modular G2X digital synth to get a CV output to control the cutoff of my analog MF-101 like a modular filter:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-12266.html

Analog and digital synths both have pros and cons. My biggest negative gripe about digital is aliasing noise. Many digital filters also do not sound nearly as good as analog ones. And digital can be *too* precise, resulting in a cold or sterile sound. Poor analog circuit designs can lead to bad note/pitch tracking, pitch/tuning drift, imprecise preset recall from memory, bleed through noise of CV signals from filters/VCAs, thermal hiss and other noise on the audio outputs. So, in my opinion, I don’t think analog or digital is always better.

MIDI CCs are O.K. for relatively slow changes like from a manual knob tweak or expression pedal, but in my opinion, they are way too low resolution (only 128 discrete values) and the timing too unreliable for fast CV changes generated by LFOs, envelope generators, etc. Here is where direct CV generation from digital sources is the best answer. The MOTU Volta with DC enabled audio outputs has already been mentioned.
The Moog MP-201 CV pedal should be excellent for this (I don’t have one *yet*). The MP-201 can do LFOs, and OS 2.0 version does envelopes (yeah!). IIRC, the MP-201 DAC has 12 bit resolution giving up to 4,096 discrete CV values with an update rate that should be vastly superior to using MIDI CCs.

And then there is the DIY option that I took of modifying digital gear to get DC CV outputs (only works though if you can route modulation sources to the audio output as is the case with the Nord Modular). Here is another suggestion that should work if you have DC enabled audio outputs (or you can modify your audio outs to bypass the DC blocking caps): Get a copy of the free Nord Modular G2 Demo Software. It will allow you to get two channels of CV output from a generous selection and combination LFOs, EGs, and audio rate modulation sources. The Demo will accept MIDI note input (for triggering EGs and/or pitch CV generation) and MIDI CC assignments for external MIDI control of module parameters. You will probably need to amplify the audio outputs though because most line level outputs are too low to give you the full -5V to +5V (or greater) range that you may need. You can download the G2 Demo here:

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/main.asp?tm=Downloads

Select “Nord Modular G2” and your computer OS in the windows to get to the G2 Demo download page.

[soundxplorer]

And then there is the DIY option that I took of modifying digital gear to get DC CV outputs (only works though if you can route modulation sources to the audio output as is the case with the Nord Modular).

Nice! Thanks for the link. I'll consider trying this with my Delta 44 PC interface. Then I could get true envelope shapes out of the 2600v.

[Lux_Seeker]

For example, Absynth has great envelopes. I thought, wouldn't it be nice to use these to control foogers? An easy way to do that is to simple create a sin wave to a foogers audio and those that have envelope outs, will create an envelope based on whatever amplitude envelope is in Absynth.

I've done the Envelope Follower trick you mention and it does work, but my problem was it took up an entire module (either the MF-107 or MF-101) to generate the envelope signal, so I couldn't use that module for anything else. I wound up buying a few Eurorack modules to cover MIDI and envelopes. I like running sequenced things through an envelope follower, like stuff out of my Electribes.

With the 2600v I used in the video example you can route an envelope straight into the outputs. The only problem is my PC interface is not DC coupled so envelope signals don't come out properly. One of the newer MOTU interfaces would probably work fine for envelopes coming out of the 2600v, even without the Volta software.

Which Moogerfoogers do you have Lux?

I have all foogers except the Bass MURF and MURF. I have the MIDI Murf.

I also do have a DC coupled interface (MOTU Mk3 - 838). I might get Volta but more like Expert Sleepers Silent Way but Absynth is much more powerful with envelopes and they can be controlled at various breakpoints and use MIDI CC messages to controll them.

I can afford to give up one fooger. I also have a matrix routing system in which I can configure complex fooger setups with a simple MIDI program change message so my fooger setup, once I get all this wired, is not going to be fixed at all. The combo of the matrix router and the MOTU mixer will create a complete integrated system with my Korg M3 and Voyager.

[Lux_Seeker]

For a while now, I have been thinking about how to join the digital and analogue worlds.

Hi Lux_Seeker,

I too believe in the beauty of sonically blending various synthesis methods.

I know you're probably hip to these, but here are three of the many ways I'd try this:

MP-201's MIDI ->CV (Do you have one of these yet?)

MOTU's Volta:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyHtyylDmJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cz0QHvkO2U

Then there's the Doepfer Dark Energy, which can send simultaneous multiple
CVs from MIDI messages via MIDI or USB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLs6XQxO6uE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytuBi9tjr7E

You can send the audio out of your digital synths into your 'foogers and use MIDI to
simultaneously control both the digital synths and the various parameters of the 'foogers.

MIDI ->CV is particularly powerful when used to dictate the Frequency of the
oscillator in the FreqBox when it's set to Sync.

Great suggestions and thanks. This is the kind fo response I was hoping for. Yes, I do have an MP 201 and that is the kind of thing I want to do with it. I am thinking pretty big here. I am integrating several components together using a combination of a matrix routing system (MIDI controlled) and a MOTU Mk3 - 828.

The MP 201 is a pretty amazing pedal. I read the manual and have a lot of ideas but I want to have a whole plan to intergrate my synths and foogers together. In fact, I have been spending hours with wriring diagrams. The CV stuff will be on a patch bay but all audo will be hardwired and controlled via matrix router and MOTU interface. I have to work out the MIDI rountings before fulling integrating the MP 201.

I did not realize the dark energy could do what you are talking about. I knew there was something about that thing I like. I will have to consider one. It might help to provide futher integration.

[Lux_Seeker]

Varice:

Thanks for the links and again, some great advice. As I said in early posts I do have a DC coupled (MOTU) interface and the MP 201.

I basically have all the components to do some serious stream crossing.

As for your comments on digital and audio, I totally agree. Each has strengths and weaknesses. Frankly, I don't like the filters on my Korg M3 at all but some of the sounds are really beautiful and unlike sofware, the thing never crashes. It also has an increbible ability to layer sounds together and has KARMA which is a whole other topic. It also has some extremly powerful modulation possiblities which tower over the Voyager. It has very flexible effects routing, the keyboard is top notch and feels a lot like a piano. I love it and would never get rid of it.

Tha said, its filters sound crappy to me. it was one thing that disspointed me a lot about it. And yes, some sounds can be a bit antisceptic. It also is limiit in a way that is hard to describe. The best way I can describe it is that it just runs progrrams. Great ones dont' get me wrong but when I work with analogue gear, I never know sometimes how it will react and that is part of the magic of it.

That said, I also love my Voyager. I don't know any keyboard on the market with all those CV inputs and with expander outputs on the market. That combined with foogers and it can produce sounds that my M3 can touch.

So yes, there is a tradoff with each the trick I beleive is in using them together so they complement each other.

[Lux_Seeker]

Thanks everyone for the great posts here. I was away from the forum for a while and did not get a change to review these posts. I want to address some of these ideas in more detail and you gave me hours of things to consider but that is exactly what I am looking for right now. I have been somewhat randomly using equipment but I am a composer and I want to integerate what I have so that it becomes a single instrument. I saw a video where Vangelis uses graphical symbols and a custom system to easily pull up the sounds that he wants. It inspired me to think integration. Besides, my keybaord are up against a wall and I know that someday I am going to falll end up with a few hundred pounds of keyboard come crashing on top of me . So for more idealistic and more pragmatic reason I want to integrate my equipment and yes, cross the streams.