There's some really good comments on here, I'm enjoying hearing all of your own stances regarding the whole spectrum of the topic. The money subject is covered fully, I brought it up mainly because it had to be discussed, and would have been sooner or later.
I do agree with much of what all of you say, MOOG is doing the right thing to keep in business, and is offering way better customer support than most companies do.
DontBelievetheHype brings up some key points that I was hoping someone would bring up. Specifically using MIDI to allow you to set-up other things while you run with a vibe on the fly. Don't get me wrong, I think MIDI is great, and I'm fully aware that it's used as a controller, not for sound. In the studio, MIDI makes good sense if you are trying to repeat something exactly, or messing around with a sound, it gives you the platform to create, change, and go back when needed. What I'm beginning to see a trend towards, at least in my area, is to rely on MIDI to play the music for you, and not to use it to jam. I mean having a memory bank of 50 different sounds for use on a little phatty, and having a bunch of foogers be able to have settings change on the fly is a freaking sweet idea... Currently you have to be extremely efficient at both playing your part and setting up for the next sound, if you can at all with analog gear - some of the changes are a massive undertaking. But if I go out and see a band, and they "jam" out a song exactly the same twice on two separate occasions, I really question the musical talent - especially if they are using mainly MIDI controlled gear. I've seen it fail miserably too, where the machine was expected to do something, like trigger a main bass line and play it, and it just wouldn't happen - so they actually stopped the song to restart it - MORE THAN ONCE! This is more of what I mean by lazy, but I guess that happens regardless of the technology.
'Fooger new direction...
It is interesting to see everyone's take on this. I find this news nothing short of excellent! This is progress and innovation.
I fail to see people upset with this. If you are happy with the current versions, purchase those versions. You can also purchase the new one and not use the new features.
Upset that you don't have the new features on your current ones? Sure, your existing purchases will not have these new features, but that is true of every product that is updated. Maybe we will be able to update our current versions. It has just been announced. We don't know what comes next yet.
As far as people being upset with the fact that you own the older versions and it is an investment, well I own 7 Murfs (5 regular and 2 bass). How do you think I feel? Well, I for one, am glad. I hope that there will be a way to upgrade them, but if not, I don't care. I will still use them forever. They are great for me.
As for the feeling that MIDI is not needed. Well, that is just silly. Again, don't use it if you don't like it. The way that I see it, MIDI adds a massive amount of control in syncing alone, not to mention being able to create your own patterns. Sure, you can currently tap tempo or step sync them all together, but what happens when you want some of the Murfs to have different tempo values, while keeping them all in sync with a master tempo. This makes for some very serious patching that is still very difficult to keep in sync. I welcome the new version. There is so much more I will be able to do.
One should not try to blame technology for talent. It is up to the artist how they use it. Technology is just a mere tool...
Michael...
I fail to see people upset with this. If you are happy with the current versions, purchase those versions. You can also purchase the new one and not use the new features.
Upset that you don't have the new features on your current ones? Sure, your existing purchases will not have these new features, but that is true of every product that is updated. Maybe we will be able to update our current versions. It has just been announced. We don't know what comes next yet.
As far as people being upset with the fact that you own the older versions and it is an investment, well I own 7 Murfs (5 regular and 2 bass). How do you think I feel? Well, I for one, am glad. I hope that there will be a way to upgrade them, but if not, I don't care. I will still use them forever. They are great for me.
As for the feeling that MIDI is not needed. Well, that is just silly. Again, don't use it if you don't like it. The way that I see it, MIDI adds a massive amount of control in syncing alone, not to mention being able to create your own patterns. Sure, you can currently tap tempo or step sync them all together, but what happens when you want some of the Murfs to have different tempo values, while keeping them all in sync with a master tempo. This makes for some very serious patching that is still very difficult to keep in sync. I welcome the new version. There is so much more I will be able to do.
One should not try to blame technology for talent. It is up to the artist how they use it. Technology is just a mere tool...
Michael...
There is zero reason to not welcome MIDI enhancements to the foogers with open arms, seriously. Analog purists shouldn't even mind, as it's a benign feature, no affect whatsoever to status quo if you hate MIDI or whatever.
To those on the other hand who like the idea of taking the moogerfoogers to the next level, this is quite obviously the way forward, as there is SO much potential here without major overhauls to the fooger size and design.
BIG ups to Moog on making this huge leap forward. I sincerely hope the MIDI MuRFs fly off the shelves. I know I'll be contributing to that frenzy soon enough.
PS I too hope retrofits might be available if Moog does indeed start producing more foogers with new MIDI capabilities. To those who feel bummed about this since they just bought a murf: If the MIDI'd version means so much to you, sell it and get a midi murf. This is just the way it is with companies who actually give a crap about their product development. Look at Moog's current synth line and you'll see the exact same thing happening constantly. LP Tribute upgrades, several different Voyager upgrades. It's beautiful. Most companies abandon their products after a while altogether, often leaving the customers with their wishlists in hand and letters to Synthaclaus unanswered. When stuff like this happens, be happy to know that you contributed to the Moog legacy, and can have real faith in the future for your product. It's a beautiful thing.
To those on the other hand who like the idea of taking the moogerfoogers to the next level, this is quite obviously the way forward, as there is SO much potential here without major overhauls to the fooger size and design.
BIG ups to Moog on making this huge leap forward. I sincerely hope the MIDI MuRFs fly off the shelves. I know I'll be contributing to that frenzy soon enough.
PS I too hope retrofits might be available if Moog does indeed start producing more foogers with new MIDI capabilities. To those who feel bummed about this since they just bought a murf: If the MIDI'd version means so much to you, sell it and get a midi murf. This is just the way it is with companies who actually give a crap about their product development. Look at Moog's current synth line and you'll see the exact same thing happening constantly. LP Tribute upgrades, several different Voyager upgrades. It's beautiful. Most companies abandon their products after a while altogether, often leaving the customers with their wishlists in hand and letters to Synthaclaus unanswered. When stuff like this happens, be happy to know that you contributed to the Moog legacy, and can have real faith in the future for your product. It's a beautiful thing.
www.ctrlshft.com
I can totally understand fear when you think about MIDI in Moogerfoogers. These are piece of traditional tank built hi-end instruments/tools, in most of us opinion. It is not only about Analog area, it is about the instrument you are playing with. And I do buy Moogerfoogers because they are the instruments I want to play with. Talk about MIDI control, you're not playing any more, you're programming.
I totally love my Voyager because it has Mem. and MIDI (OldSchool would not fit), I love my MIDI stuff (Tenori-on, SIDStation, FS1R, etc.), MP201 is a great tool but I hate the idea to have a MIDIfied MF104 (just want a tap tempo with MP201 pleeeease): I would not play with it the same way if I knew that I could program it. I know I could not help to record and play via MIDI to be sure to have the same result next time. And that is not a very good thing from the creation point of view. This is definitely not why I bought 6 Moogerfoogers, even if for the very MF105 line-up, MIDI is a great thing.
I totally love my Voyager because it has Mem. and MIDI (OldSchool would not fit), I love my MIDI stuff (Tenori-on, SIDStation, FS1R, etc.), MP201 is a great tool but I hate the idea to have a MIDIfied MF104 (just want a tap tempo with MP201 pleeeease): I would not play with it the same way if I knew that I could program it. I know I could not help to record and play via MIDI to be sure to have the same result next time. And that is not a very good thing from the creation point of view. This is definitely not why I bought 6 Moogerfoogers, even if for the very MF105 line-up, MIDI is a great thing.
"There's something wrong about this world in which Clouds sells 5x more than Tides." O.Gillet
-
DontBelievetheHype
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:19 am
How about 'programming' the 105b's filters so you can 'play' themNeekau wrote:. And I do buy Moogerfoogers because they are the instruments I want to play with. Talk about MIDI control, you're not playing any more, you're programming.
.
I understand the sentiment, but Im not worried about the added functionality impeding my creative process and Im happy to take the good MIDI offers and leave the mundane to the robots who want to pre-sequence everything and just push play.Synth bass guitar rig including MS-20 filter clone, Paradox TZF, MF101, 102, 103, 107(x2), CP-251 and MP-201
hi, i own a Bass Murf and i sure be really happy to upgrade to the midi version, so far with the tradicional murf i'm able to do really good things for the music, and i can only think in better things when you add midi.
I think Moog is taking the right direction here, if you look at the other manufacturers pedals or effects there's nothing compared to foogers, and if you add midifoogers... their totally blown... Moog is taking this a step further without eliminate any of the previous features, i'm glad for it.
i own 4 foogers and a MP-201, if you add midi to all the foogers i was thinking you will need some sort of box to multiply your midi outs (the foogers have only midi ins)
I think Moog is taking the right direction here, if you look at the other manufacturers pedals or effects there's nothing compared to foogers, and if you add midifoogers... their totally blown... Moog is taking this a step further without eliminate any of the previous features, i'm glad for it.
i own 4 foogers and a MP-201, if you add midi to all the foogers i was thinking you will need some sort of box to multiply your midi outs (the foogers have only midi ins)
..::PATOBRUJO::..
I theorize that perhaps the reason why they are adding midi is so that you can have greater connectivity. FOr instance, the MP201 currently doesn't do CV to Midi conversion, so having the Midi in the Foogers will eliminate the need for the converter.
I think the Foogers were just fine without Midi frankly. I guess Im in the camp that hasn't had much luck with Midi, other than just connecting instruments to other instruments.
I think the Foogers were just fine without Midi frankly. I guess Im in the camp that hasn't had much luck with Midi, other than just connecting instruments to other instruments.
Support the Bob Moog Foundation:
https://moogfoundation.org/do-something-2/donate/
I think I hear the mothership coming.
https://moogfoundation.org/do-something-2/donate/
I think I hear the mothership coming.
-
Lux_Seeker
- Posts: 473
- Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:44 pm
As with many things, I have mixed feelings about MIDI. First, I think its a standard that needs improvement because it has limited bandwidth and resolution. This is why you see Lemur and Native Instruments Reaktor moving outside the MIDI paradigm.
Has MIDI made us lazy? I think the answer to this had to be yes to some extent it has but MIDI has also sychopated everthing. This was used to great effect in dance music. Syncopated bass and drum lines formed the basis of whole new type of music. Trouble is, the musician is strangly abscent in all this.
I also think that being a able to save a patch can be a temptation for the lazy and indeed for me. I have to admit that many times I will spend a lot of time looking at presets for synths before designing my own patches. Analogue, unless it is enhanced by MIDI or digital electronics, does not allow for this.
Then again, consider the CS-80 and the absurd lengths that Yamaha went to to be able to save a patch (sort of) and then the sucess of the Prophet 5.
In the end, its up to the musican to define who he/she is. MIDI does not make the musican and sure, a musican who wants to rely on drum loops and presets is going to lack creativity but there are many ways to be lazy in music and MIDI is just one of them.
I do hope that the industry can move beyond the MIDI standard so perhaps Moog should be thinking in these terms as well.
Has MIDI made us lazy? I think the answer to this had to be yes to some extent it has but MIDI has also sychopated everthing. This was used to great effect in dance music. Syncopated bass and drum lines formed the basis of whole new type of music. Trouble is, the musician is strangly abscent in all this.
I also think that being a able to save a patch can be a temptation for the lazy and indeed for me. I have to admit that many times I will spend a lot of time looking at presets for synths before designing my own patches. Analogue, unless it is enhanced by MIDI or digital electronics, does not allow for this.
Then again, consider the CS-80 and the absurd lengths that Yamaha went to to be able to save a patch (sort of) and then the sucess of the Prophet 5.
In the end, its up to the musican to define who he/she is. MIDI does not make the musican and sure, a musican who wants to rely on drum loops and presets is going to lack creativity but there are many ways to be lazy in music and MIDI is just one of them.
I do hope that the industry can move beyond the MIDI standard so perhaps Moog should be thinking in these terms as well.
Here this should keep you busy until release:
http://www.solarcollector.ca/create.php
So I've been stewing on this one for a bit.
MIDI would open new doors to very large areas of play with moogerfoogers, and probably areas that we couldn't see before - such as the user programmable patterns. Just look at the thread regarding the analog delay; the "simplest" way to add some of the requests for change would be through the implementation of internal MIDI 'processors' (if you will). Possibilities could include delay time, and potentially getting it shorter for flange type sounds... Or, adding the tap tempo feature - though this is most competitive as a permanent 'feature' simply opened by pre-programmed MIDI controllers present, it does allow syncopating samplers & drum machines quite easily. One barrier I can see it hitting quickly in this regard though, is the want / need for more CV inputs. I want to be able to sync the delay time to an LFO frequency, both controlled by a tap - that would be a fantastic feature using CV, but how do you break the barrier created by MIDI and analog pots with start and stop positions?
You're kind of forced into one control or the other - or to allow for some type of correction when the knob is set at minimum delay time, and the tap tempo is set to one second intervals. Any movement of the analog knob would either have to take the delay time outside of it's limits, above it's maximum time, or would force a sudden change in delay time from the tapped time to the analog knob time. It would be a neat glitch a few times I'm sure, but would just get really annoying during a jam. I'd like to see how the MuRF handles this with it's LFO.
Think about having a nice self oscillating delay sound at a tapped long time interval, and you reach for the expression pedal to slow it down, and the pedal is near minimum already. From what I understand, when you get to the expression pedal, you either have a glitch from the tapped setting to the pedal setting, or you force a re-alignment of the expression pedal value to the one set by tapping... Meaning you need to move the toe down until you equal the value of the tapped time, thus re-locking the analog control of the expression pedal to the tapped cycle, and free for modification via analog methods.
Look at EHX... some of their new stuff is definitely MIDI pre-programmed. To some degree they have offered this for a while, but only for memory applications, like the HOG. MOOG has a leg up here, allowing control of parameters in realtime, without fiddling with knobs. Theoretically you can change more all at once. You'd almost have to take a page out of the Little Phatty's book, and have the knobs free spinning (correct me if I'm wrong here...); the new EHX pedals have that new, usually white handled knob that has continuous rotation.
Maybe that's what we will start seeing...
Maybe this is the reason that MIDI needs to be internally implemented?
Or am I completely in left field -
it is late!!
http://www.solarcollector.ca/create.php
So I've been stewing on this one for a bit.
MIDI would open new doors to very large areas of play with moogerfoogers, and probably areas that we couldn't see before - such as the user programmable patterns. Just look at the thread regarding the analog delay; the "simplest" way to add some of the requests for change would be through the implementation of internal MIDI 'processors' (if you will). Possibilities could include delay time, and potentially getting it shorter for flange type sounds... Or, adding the tap tempo feature - though this is most competitive as a permanent 'feature' simply opened by pre-programmed MIDI controllers present, it does allow syncopating samplers & drum machines quite easily. One barrier I can see it hitting quickly in this regard though, is the want / need for more CV inputs. I want to be able to sync the delay time to an LFO frequency, both controlled by a tap - that would be a fantastic feature using CV, but how do you break the barrier created by MIDI and analog pots with start and stop positions?
You're kind of forced into one control or the other - or to allow for some type of correction when the knob is set at minimum delay time, and the tap tempo is set to one second intervals. Any movement of the analog knob would either have to take the delay time outside of it's limits, above it's maximum time, or would force a sudden change in delay time from the tapped time to the analog knob time. It would be a neat glitch a few times I'm sure, but would just get really annoying during a jam. I'd like to see how the MuRF handles this with it's LFO.
Think about having a nice self oscillating delay sound at a tapped long time interval, and you reach for the expression pedal to slow it down, and the pedal is near minimum already. From what I understand, when you get to the expression pedal, you either have a glitch from the tapped setting to the pedal setting, or you force a re-alignment of the expression pedal value to the one set by tapping... Meaning you need to move the toe down until you equal the value of the tapped time, thus re-locking the analog control of the expression pedal to the tapped cycle, and free for modification via analog methods.
Look at EHX... some of their new stuff is definitely MIDI pre-programmed. To some degree they have offered this for a while, but only for memory applications, like the HOG. MOOG has a leg up here, allowing control of parameters in realtime, without fiddling with knobs. Theoretically you can change more all at once. You'd almost have to take a page out of the Little Phatty's book, and have the knobs free spinning (correct me if I'm wrong here...); the new EHX pedals have that new, usually white handled knob that has continuous rotation.
Maybe that's what we will start seeing...
Maybe this is the reason that MIDI needs to be internally implemented?
Or am I completely in left field -
it is late!!Vibration emanates from all things, even nothing. Using awareness to translate vibration into "music" is something that I am whole heartedly grateful for.
MIDI is useful but archaic.
I know there was some work on MIDI 2 but its too bad that an advanced MIDI protocol hasn't been developed that could support old MIDI.
I know there was some work on MIDI 2 but its too bad that an advanced MIDI protocol hasn't been developed that could support old MIDI.
Little Phatty TE #1023 • Schrittmacher • Walking Stick ribbon • Korg microXL/Electribe MX/KaossPro • Sonnus G2M
MF-101 Filter • MF-102 Ring • MF-103 Phaser • MF-104Z Delay • MF-105 MuRF • MF-107 FreqBox • MF-108M Cluster • Etherwave
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
MF-101 Filter • MF-102 Ring • MF-103 Phaser • MF-104Z Delay • MF-105 MuRF • MF-107 FreqBox • MF-108M Cluster • Etherwave
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/