'Fooger new direction...

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Alien8
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'Fooger new direction...

Post by Alien8 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:44 pm

What is your opinion regarding MOOG's new direction of using MIDI for new products? In general the response seems to be really good... I mean they have a MIDI MuRF now - the first MIDI 'fooger, they have the MP-201, and of course the Little Phatty and the Voyager all have MIDI control as well.

I'm a little bit confused, or frustrated, or angry if you will that the direction to add MIDI control directly to the fooger line has been breached. It's probably the right direction to keep them in business, and competitive, since most music these days is created with a computer controlled tempo and foogers can be hard to set-up twice. However, I was hoping my investment was in fact an investment, and not a purchase that would be eaten by the great 0 and 1 monster. These items are now computers with version numbers that can make them obsolete because they don't have a MIDI port on them. On the flip side, just because one fooger is now MIDI doesn't mean they all will be; but the next most likely to go would be the delay - there goes $800 CAD. Should all of the fooger line go MIDI adaptable, then the ones I own will most likely become obsolete; and I would expect nothing less - they would offer repeatable results, and potentially added features not normally attainable in the original designs. They have eliminated me as competition, at least if you want to use MIDI, or if I expect my equipment to hold any value. Business is business, and music is music.

I bought MOOG products for the purity of analog, and because I thought it would be a good investment in case I ever moved on from music, or to pass on to the next generation. I kind of felt like I was doing business with a company that "shook Sinatra's hand" and had dignity in the actions they took. But now I am a little concerned that I was mistaken to think that MOOG wouldn't ever one up themselves, which is really what I'm blown away by - my own naivety. I mean they've done it before, most recently the Little Phatty, and the Etherwave theremin have had physical upgrades that cannot be added to originals. The Voyager had MIDI added as well.

Why would they go this way, and not just simply offer more ability in say an MP-201, which could be added to the existing, making previous foogers retain their special place, I was pretty excited to see how that controller evolved for each of the specific abilities it could provide. But now I'm concerned that it will get updated once with a number of good improvements, and then that's it.

Yes, they have answered may customer's requests to accommodate them in many ways, and they do respond, so in many ways they can still hold their heads high... The MIDI MuRF is a great idea. The Bass MuRF and MuRF combined into one, and the ability to create your own patterns is a great idea. So with that said, I'm looking forward to their future ideas, and innovations, but I'm not looking forward to more re-doing stuff. It would be really awesome of them to allow some kind of "upgrade" program, however I'm not expecting they would, it doesn't make sense to do.

I guess where all of this really comes from is where does the purity of analog synths and effects really lie. If all of these are MIDI controlled, they just become a physical plug in... There isn't a hole lot left in the analog world if MIDI controls it, except for the sound itself. The MuRF could have been easily sync'd before by using a click into a filter, and sending env out to the midi tap tempo input. My observation is that this is a lazy man's feature. What happened to music that breathes? (uh-oh... I'm getting old :lol:)

(Most of this is just a rant, but I do in fact want to hear some of your opinions regarding this. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just discussing a perspective currently in view.)
Last edited by Alien8 on Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vibration emanates from all things, even nothing. Using awareness to translate vibration into "music" is something that I am whole heartedly grateful for.

r05c03
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Post by r05c03 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:56 pm

I don't personally see what line they have crossed....Moog has used MIDI before, no? I would have felt like they crossed the line perhaps if they made a rack-mount digital unit with the ability to everything that the current line 'foogers already does.. They did not come to this idea on their own but were responding to and making a product that people wanted them to make. They made the 'Foogers as guitar pedal primarily. Am I wrong? So in that sense, if you want to talk about acquiesceing to market forces you can blame them for making the Moogerfoogers at all (i.e. to the largest percentage of musicians). Most likely, it is only the people that have been trying to force Moogerfoogers into the modular synth slot that have prompted this move. A majority of guitarists, I am sure are happy to have an expression pedal or two.
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Lux_Seeker
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Post by Lux_Seeker » Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:13 pm

I would have to say that I fall somewhere in between the two comments here. I fully understand what you mean by an investment and yes, if all the foogers where MIDIfied it would indeed considerably lower the value of the curent foogers if one wanted to resell them. I dont' have a problem with a product being analogue with MIDI because the MIDI murf is not a digital pedal. Its simply an analogue circut with MIDI (digital) control. In a sense, that is not different than having a Murf and a MIDI to CV box. In fact, any of the foogers can be controlled this way.

So I guess I see things both ways. Yes, I think that MIDIfying foogers would make an already great product better but yes, I also think it would reduce the value of the current foogers. Unless your selling them, they are of the same worth to you and if you get a good MIDI to CV you can make the all MIDI foogers.

redeyeflight
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Post by redeyeflight » Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:21 pm

midi control, cv control, whats the difference? moog isnt releasing digital stuff, just more options for its analog products. for me the choice is simple: you want a synth w/o midi or any sort of digital control go out and get an ARP odysey or something....they're great boards! I owned one for a time and it has some amazing sounds. But personally I love the analog sound of moogs products and revel in the fact that I can save presets, update the operating system, and synch it to my DAW (which I've ataully never done but, hey...I could!) I say keep pushin forward and keep innovting...if not just stay w/ the vintage stuff...it's still around and totally useable (I don't know what I'd without my prophet 600 or my string ensemble...but I love my voyager!!!)

Bryan T
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Re: 'Fooger new direction...

Post by Bryan T » Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:28 pm

Don't forget that Moog is also developing a CV expansion for the Little Phatty. I think their direction is wonderful. They want to offer the control that musicians want. Whether it is more CV outs/ins, MIDI control, or a hybrid of the two, they are serving their customers well.

I feel for folks who have the previous versions of the technology, but it isn't like the MuRF and Bass MuRF are now obsolete. They still do what they did when you bought them.

Alien8
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Post by Alien8 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:30 pm

Oh, it's not a question of if MOOG has used MIDI before, they quite obviously have.

I wouldn't say they are primarily a guitar pedal, not much about the guitar screams CV, unless you have other synth type gear. There isn't any other company that makes a guitar pedal with CV out, in, yes, but not out. Moogerfoogers, to me, are more of an add on to the synth units, controlled by CV. But I guess that MIDI has become the more dominant communication line and it is time to add these features for support.

The line I'm talking about is re-doing what has been done. They picked the right fooger to do it to, but are they going to add an LFO to the filter next? I hope when they do, that they also add a band pass and high pass filter to it.

Why didn't they house it in a CP style enclosure to get away from the "guitar pedal" look?

Either way, the existing moogerfoogers are set-up to become obsolete.
Vibration emanates from all things, even nothing. Using awareness to translate vibration into "music" is something that I am whole heartedly grateful for.

r05c03
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Post by r05c03 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:07 pm

No, it will not become obsolete. That is like saying that digital makes analog obsolete. CV will still be able to much of what MIDI does and utilities such as Volta. I fail to see the problem.
MF-102, MF-107, MF-m105, CP-251, MP-201, Elektron Octatrack, Filter Factory...

Just Me
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Post by Just Me » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:45 pm

I see the Alien's problem. He bought a piece of gear expecting it to always increase in value. (Like some people did with houses not to long ago.)
Now Moog has the gall to respond to market forces and introduce an improved version of an existing pedal. The original products will (If they follow standard market practice) suddenly decrease in value some or be harder to sell.
The original pedals cannot be upgraded to the new spec. Since there is only a few dollar differance betweent he 2 new, Most people will want the new one, even if they don't currently need the features. Nice to have them there if you end up needing them later.

It is like saying how dare Hammond stop making the BV and start making the B2 with vibrato AND chorus. Then putting percusion in a B3.

I do not buy musical gear as an investment (crapshoot). I buy it because it does something I NEED.
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Alien8
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Post by Alien8 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:36 pm

No, it will not become obsolete. That is like saying that digital makes analog obsolete. CV will still be able to much of what MIDI does and utilities such as Volta. I fail to see the problem.


Saying digital makes analog obsolete is just silly - especially around here - but not on the Intel forum. Why would MOOG carry three MuRF's, TWO of which are redundant?

There is no problem, you should really speak more positively, r05c03.

As I stated I wanted to see what others though about MOOG's MIDI implementation direction. I shared my opinion that my investment in the MuRF is blown, and I felt it was a little disappointing in that regard, but like Bryan T said, my MuRF still does what it did when I bought it (but I did have to go check :wink: ) and it's still worth what I paid for it - to me. I won't be rushing out to get the new MuRF, but the new features might be handy at some point.

Most of the moogerfoogers never increase in value, they retain value. That's what I was hoping for, but I shot craps!! I don't buy gear specifically for an investment either, but I try not to take a large loss on it.
Vibration emanates from all things, even nothing. Using awareness to translate vibration into "music" is something that I am whole heartedly grateful for.

ColorForm2113
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Post by ColorForm2113 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:20 am

i dont think this is a total crap shot, there are always going to be the purest and the nit pickers who say the new one doesnt sound as good, or the stepping isnt as smooth or something ridiculous.

but as to what i think about the midi murf, having not owned either previous murf i am VERY excited. i will probably never use the midi input more than a coupl times just to test it out, but to have bass and mids in own is just a dream come true. does anyone know which pattern set is used in the midi? the original's, te bass's, or kind of a "best of" the 2?

now if i already owned one of the murfs, i would be a little upset. because i do want both. and to find out they put them both into one would be a kick in the pants. if i hd both already i think i would be fine, just keep my little quadraphonic set up and maybe down the road sell them off to open up some new realestate.
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latigid on
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Post by latigid on » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:40 am

I don't think I'll ever sell my 'foogers, but i would enjoy the extra capabilities of the 105-M. Particularly running custom patterns from a drum map.

If you look inside, the regular MuRFs have two boards, one for the filter section and control surface and another for the clock/pattern section. It's already digital, so it was a no-brainer to add MIDI here.

I'm wondering if this board could be swapped out with a new one having MIDI capability. This would very much depend on how much else has been changed. The Bass/Mids switch looks like a new addition, which means this probably can't be retro-fitted easily. That's okay for me as I have both already. The LFO on/off might involve cutting a trace and putting in a new switch. CCs on the knobs/program change? Nice, but the sync would be enough for me.

So, upgrade? Yes please, if that is at all possible. Otherwise a discount might be nice. :D

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Post by Voltor07 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:27 am

I agree with latigid on. I'm all about custom patterns. The implementation of MIDI on the 105 is long overdue, IMO. I was talking to EricK the other day about my stance on MIDI. I don't really like it all that much. But the 105-M is absolutely perfect! No complex menus, no LCD screen, not too much digital going on. Just a way to have control over the patterns. That's all. Brilliant design, really. :mrgreen:
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Post by MarbledMoog » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:56 am

yeah I personally don't dig the whole midi thing generally, but for the purpose it has been implemented in with the murf seems like a useful addition. People who don't care about midi will still buy your used murf, and you won't be at a huge loss, all Moogers retain their value. Plus as someone mentioned, the clock section in the murf is a digital control. tap tempo is a digital thing.

wasn't this what Bob was all about though with the modern Moog? The beauty of analog with the ability to co-exist and implement digital control? As long as the audio path is analog, its all good. CVs aren't going anywhere either, and never will!
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DontBelievetheHype
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Re: 'Fooger new direction...

Post by DontBelievetheHype » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:00 am

Alien8 wrote: However, I was hoping my investment was in fact an investment, and not a purchase that would be eaten by the great 0 and 1 monster.

They have eliminated me as competition, at least if you want to use MIDI, or if I expect my equipment to hold any value. Business is business, and music is music.

I bought MOOG products for the purity of analog, and because I thought it would be a good investment in case I ever moved on from music, or to pass on to the next generation.



Lets say that hypothetically, Moog just kept doing what Moog is doing and producing the same line of 'foogers- Is your investment still blown? By this logic I'd say it is, seeing that if they're still producing them... they're not likely to be going anywhere but down in value on the used market. I can understand the sentiment of being bummed about the value dropping, but it think its unreasonable to expect them not to evolve, or for them to upgrade your unit, when for a reasonable price (in my opinion- I think they will retain most of their current value, despite the release of the new ones) you can sell yours and upgrade to a new ones... they do have a business to run, and I personally think that all in all they are doing a good job of staying with times while still keeping with their roots and providing high quality analog sound that we know and love.

If you bought Moog for the purity of analog, then you got what you paid for and nothing less and they can't take that away from you. If this is more about being competitive, then I would be happy that Moog has given me the option to stay competitive while still enjoying the purity and unmatched sound of an analog signal path.

Saying MIDI is the lazy mans approach is like saying lfo's are for lazy people,... grow some extra limbs and turn those knobs yourself! Its more expressive anyway! :p

I think MIDI and analog compatibility is great. Right now it allows me to play bass guitar into a modular of sorts with my feet and cv's and MIDI sync it up to Ableton Live which I control/manipulate beats using a foot controller (next on the list is to work some looping in during parts where I keep the bass line simple so I can twist knobs and chop stuff up); the other members synths and looper is also sync'd to my computer/Ableton- he utilizes looping while going back and forth between keys and guitar. MIDI sync'd looper allows much more complex looping, as does the sync'd arpreggiation/sequencing etc. We stay very busy! :)

Anyway, that is my take on MIDI. I love fat analog bass and modulations, and with MIDI, I can have my cake.. err I can have my tone and sync it too! The best of both worlds I say 8)
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Lux_Seeker
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Post by Lux_Seeker » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:58 am

I very much agree with this last statement. Look, I love analogue for certain reason but I also love digital. I have a Korg M3 and it is, without a doubt, a beautfiul synthesizer. Its also very digital. But I also love my foogers and I will probably build a modular synth at some point in time.

I like analogue because you can gets sounds from an analogue circuit that frankly, are not possible with digitall. My dream synth would be a digitally controlled modular synth. What I mean by this is that all the knob settings could be stored digitally and also all the connections. I would not feel a loss if there were no patch cords at all. Knobs still have a benefit in terms of look and feel but loosing the patch cords would not upset me at all.

The Buchla 200e does something similar to this and the Dave Smith incarnation of the Prophet V, while fixed archetechture, also uses digital control. There is nothing inherently unmusical or lazy about making things easier so you can spend more time making music. In fact, the direction that Moog is takinig here is a good one and I would love ot see more hybrid electronics out there.

Nothing is being lost here because the sound making circults are still all analogue its just the control that is digital. Nothing is lost!

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