Sequence of pedals...

[shakti]

I want to know if changing the sequence of a line of pedals has dramatic effects on how the MFs inteact. I have heard to put delays and time based pedals at the end of the chain.

Right now my setup goes from the mixer send out to the 101 to the 102 to the 103 to 105B to the 104Z and back to the mixer return.

Does it matter what sequence they are in, and how so?
Discuss-:-)
Thanks,

[The Alison Project]

YES

Keep it simple if you run a keyboard/guitar into a 101 LP Filter than send the 101 to the 104Z Delay, you are filtering your signal than adding a delay to it.

If you reverse the sequence you would be filtering the delay signal.

Changing the order of pedals can create subtle to huge differences.

[analoghaze]

It makes a hugh difference!

[DeFrag]

Most of my next two posts deal with guitar effects but the principles apply in general. Here's the short answer:

Generally, the sequence would go something like this: tuner, volume or wah, compressor, distortion, equalization, modulation, delay/reverb, looper.

You can use a noise-gate to cut noise & a line-selector to quickly switch between a chain of distortion for crunch & leads & a second chain of mellower effects for melodies etc.

Here's a great BOSS link for you:
http://www.bossus.com/bugonline/how_to.asp?art=order

In addition, go search Google for "effect pedal order" & you'll get more information than you need. Just remember, don't take my word for it; rather, take all the recommendations & use them as a starting point for you to do your own testing. Only YOUR ears know what sounds best to you.

Typically though, if I wanted to make money.. I'd listen to someone who's got a lot of it. So consider your sources. Experimentation is the only way to get your hands dirty besides its fun "getting your sound". There are a few industry standards to consider though like don't run a distortion pedal through your amplifier's effects loop.

I hope this helps a bit.

In the next post, I present more specific information.

[DeFrag]

This is a perennial question & cause for debate. While there are some simple guidelines, there is no "right" way to do it. It's all a matter of
taste and your personal tone. Let your ears be the final arbiter.

The order of effects that produce the sounds most people have become accustomed to hearing is this:

Amplitude altering effects
Pre-distortion EQ
Distortion
Post Distortion EQ
Other tone controls
Small time delays and Phasers
Longer time delays - chorus
Reverb & echo, tape delays, etc.

There is a rationale for the placement of each effect in this order; it goes like this:

Amplitude altering effects

As simple as your guitar's volume knob, or as complicated as fancy compressors, attack-delay or other note-shaping device. The idea here is that the basic "shape" of the note that will interact with the later distortion devices gets set for the best tone at that level. Because distortions are level sensitive, the higher the level that comes out of an amplitude device, the more it will be distorted in any following distortion devices, and vice versa. A distortion following a level changing device converts the level-altering device into a distortion-intensity modulator - and that reverts to level changes if you switch the distortion out.

Pre-distortion EQ

Once again, as simple as your guitar's tone control (which is really a simple treble-cut filter) or as complicated as a parametric EQ; pre-distortion EQ sets up which frequencies are loudest - and the louder the frequency, the more that a following distortion will affect it. As I mentioned before, distortions are level sensitive devices - anything under the level at which distortion starts will be largely unaffected. Anything over the threshold will be distorted. So by boosting things we want distorted and NOT boosting things we don't want distorted, we can select the things that get distorted and have a much more animated sounding distortion. One of the most recognizable uses of this was Jimi Hendrix' use of a wah pedal (which is really a sweepable resonant filter - see the Technology of the Wah Pedal at GEO) before a Fuzz Face. A wah boosts one band of frequencies a lot, and if the levels are set right, the frequencies in the boosted range will be distorted most.

Distortion

The Ronco Veg-a-Matic of the sound world, distortions take whatever signal is coming in and slice it into analog coleslaw. In doing this, they add harmonics and intermodulation products that were not present in the original signal. This usually results in a hotter high end, as it adds more signal bits at higher frequencies that were originally present.

Post Distortion EQ and tone controls

Once the distortion has had its way with the signal and inserted a hash of harmonics into it, post distortion EQ can step in and select which bits out of this sonic stew get heard. As in many things musical, this started out unnoticed, just the nature of the beast. A 10" or 12" speaker in a cabinet has a frequency rolloff that starts between 4kHz and 6kHz, and is quite steep. This puts a serious cut on any real high frequency content from guitar. In fact, many "speaker simulators" are just multipole lowpass filters with turnover frequencies in the 4K to 6K range, and do a creditable job. Having noticed the post-distortion tone effect, we can mess with it deliberately, of course. Distortion devices make for lots of high frequency harmonics. We can cut, boost, trim, notch, and otherwise shape what the distortion device turns out. Notice that Pre-Distortion EQ changes what gets distorted in the first place. Post distortion EQ can only cut and trim on what has already been created in the distortion device. You should try it both ways - or both ways at once!. Notice that Post distortion wah sounds very different from pre-distortion wah. Try it! Anything else that does frequency shaping goes in here as well - remember the interaction of level boost-cuts with distortion.

Small time delays and Phasers

These add a spacious sound by causing multiple notches in the signal at specific frequencies. The ear is fooled into thinking it's in an acoustic space that has odd cancellations and echoes.

Longer time delays - chorus, Reverb and echo.

Some combinations and the rationales behind them:

Compressor before distortion

Gives a "smoother" distortion sound because the signal level the distortion gets has less variation - the compressor wipes off more of the signal changes, so the distortion works mostly at one level, and the tone quality of the distortion changes less as the note decays. The disadvantage is that the hiss of the compressor is further amplified by the distortion, so this setup is noisier than either by itself.

Distortion before compressor

The compressor adds little but hiss, because the distortion already sets up a fairly fixed output level. The tone quality changes as the distortion would without the compressor.

Distortion before time delay

The subtleties of the time delay, chorus, flange, etc. are generated after the distortion's harmonic hash, so the nuances of the delay can be heard.

Time delay before distortion

The distortion's harmonic generation tends to fill in the response notches the time delay created, usually less acceptable.

In the end, only your ears can determine what your sound needs to be. Experiment! Find *your* sound. In the end, the only right way is your way.

[latigid on]

One simple way of looking at it is:

Add harmonics first (distortion, ringmodulator etc.).
Remove harmonics second (phasers, filters).
Delays, reverbs and pans come last, so they have the most to work with.

Moog filters self oscillate, so they can be used to "add" sound...

Bring on the patchbay!

[DeFrag]

With my MoFos I plan to run in this sequence:
Ring Mod, FreqBox, Analog Delay, & then the MuRF to take advantage of the stereo output. Ideally, the delay should be last though.

If I had a filter, I'd definately run that first & a phaser would be before the MuRF & delay.

I'd say the entire Fooger line would look like this:
MF-101 Low-Pass Filter, MF-102 Ring Modulator, MF-105 MuRF, MF-103 Phaser, & MF-104Z Analog Delay.

I'm not entirely sure where the MF-107 FreqBox would go. I'd tend to stick it between the Ring & the MuRF. What do you guys think?

[Alien8]

When I think of producing sound I think in this manner... (there are massive hints in here, read carefully to pick them out ... this is not a stone written bible by any sence, just a thought process you can use to accomplish what you want ... )

1) create a note at a frequency using an instrument.

2) modify that note by making a chord, or harmony (ie whammy pedal, FreqBox etc). Putting this up front keeps tracking locked in and the effect will produce intentional sounds ...

3) use the note to define amplitude (ie auto filters MF-101, speed sensitve modulation, even auto volume pedals etc). This ensures that the entire note produced has an effect on the "peak" ...

4) since tone can be controlled by amplitude (dynamics, how hard you play), add tone modifiers via distortion, eq etc. This ensures the amplitude is not defined by an oscillator, but is defined filters and volume drops ...

5) add spatial dimension to the sound via delay, and modulation in an order that satisfies the overall mood goal. Sometimes you want an exact echo, and sometimes you want a swirling room full of canibalistic noise ...

6) amplify and tweak overall tone... tube character, solid state, straight into the mixer etc. Each has a defining characteristics. FX loops can also be used here, just remember that they will be the last layer, and can drastically change all of the previous layers ...

Since the FreqBox is essentially a different voice for any instrument, I would tend put it first in the chain, for my reasons above...

I don't follow this in my final set-up, but I used it to generate my set-up... Currently: guitar -> Vox wah -> MF-101 -> HOG -> DD-6 -> Rotovibe -> TS9DX -> Traynor YCV40WR (amp) -> EQ in FX loop -> speaker...

I don't keep this order though, its just where I start, by the time I'm done I end up with my wah in the fx loop, and guitar straight in!

[redeyeflight]

I really like the ringmod BEFORE the lowpass filter...I think it sounds a lot better. I'm thinking the freqbox would be before the ringmod even. So the signal chain is: insturment-107-102-101-103-105-104z-amp
that's the best setup IMO...

[latigid on]

My ringmod goes before my filter, too.

[Lengai]

So,

107->102->101->105->103->104

Would be the ideal set up based on the posts?

[redeyeflight]

yeah, and i think the 105 and the 103 are pretty interchangeable...depends on which one filters the other and i think both could be pretty cool. They can be farily similar sounding pedals but the murf can do a whole lot more. Might be nice to be able to filter the murfs sounds with the phasor and vice versa....

[Lengai]

Let me ask you guys this,

I plan on getting a 107 as soon as they are available. I own a Little Big Muff distortion pedal that I want to place in the chain as well. Would that work best after the 107 and before the 102 or after the 101?

107->(BigMuff?)->102->101->(BigMuff?)->105/103->103/105->104

Where would you guys place it?

[redeyeflight]

I tend to put fuzzes early in the signal chain because they respond better to the changes in guitar volume knob manipulation better when there's no non true-bypass effects buffering the signal (like moogerfoogers). Having said that, the tracking might be better on the 107 with the fuzz after it if you use both effects at once. Having not had the chance to play the 107 yet I cant comment on the tracking abilities but this is genrally the case with say an octave divider or a whammy pedal. I would say put the fuzz in front and when you get the 107 if it doesn't really work well with the fuzz in front try it after.

[sagezero]

I've been using the mf-107 with fuzz before it and an mf101 after it. I even have an octave pedal before it, which produces some wild stuff when fed into the mf-107.