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I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:56 pm
by BobbyD-NYC
I am a guitarist of 39 years and recently had the good fortune to pick up my first piece of analog gear for my home studio which is all digital using Ableton as my DAW. The gear I purchased was the Moog Sub 37 which I am love with.

I wanted an analog delay to go along with sub 37 and bought a MINT condition 104z for $450, not realizing the 104m has the MIDI and controller capability. Is this something that should bother me knowing it's only going to be used for the home studio. I know there are CV inputs on the 104z, but I read that the 104M has an additional type of CV input. I am a bit confused besides the MIDI and tap function, what the other functionality was. Should I sell this unit and buy the 104M or will this suffice for being used with the Sub 37.

What I would ultimately like to do is have multiple MoogerFooger pedals all synched up together with the Sub-37. If that is the case, this pedal wouldn't work.

My other question is what other MoogerFooger pedals play nice with a Moog Synth?


Re: I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:21 pm
by stiiiiiiive
Hi BobbyD, and welcome :)

The 104Z is a great delay by itself. Why you'd want the 104M?
Well, tap tempo for a start (I always use it live), MIDI (never used it), inegrated modulation of the delay time (you can do it with extra gear and the 104Z if you really want it).
A couple of other, less obvious, reasons: the sound -the 104M is a bit smoother, and the fact that when you use the insert function (i.e. inserting another pedal in the feedback loop), the 104Z has its first echo dry and the following are processed-weird.

All that being said, the 104Z is an amazing sounding an flexible delay unit. I have one, bought a 104M afterwards... and kept them both :)
Enjoy your new toy, and seize the opportunity of getting a 104M later (they are rare on the market anyway). Sell the 104Z after that if you don't want it anymore. You may regret to have none of them at home...

Re: I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:00 pm
by BobbyD-NYC
I do not think I would need to modulate the delay time so that's not a biggie and the tap tempo is no biggie either because this is being used with Moog sub 37 not on pedalboard. I wanted to add a few more MoogerFoogers along the journey and thought being able to synch all the pedals together was the best way to use them.

I had asked what other pedals people use with the Mogg synths and have not had a response. Quite honestly, I was surprised that people put pedlas in front of moggs because they seem like they can do almost anything. Live and learn.

After the delay pedal, what other pedals seem to work well with a synth & delay. I am brand new to this world so please excuse my ignorance.



Re: I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:59 am
by Croyote
Considering the best price you can probably find on a Moog MF-104M is about $700 if you are lucky, you did fine.

The 104Z is generally brighter in tone than the 104M. If you ever have issues with the delay shorting out fear not, there has been extensive discussion on this and it's not a dealbreaker for those awesome pedals.

If you decide to return it and want something similar but a little cheaper you can get the EHX Deluxe Memory Man 1100 w/ TT that EHX has just reissued with a reproduction BBD chip through dealers like Sweetwater. It doesn't not have the built-in Low Pass Filter so it's a bit noisier than the Moog Delay at the longest settings, but the effects loop is more functional since all the echos (including the first one) are processed through it. The Gain Circuit is not as good either, but overall the pedal is a worthy opponent of the Moog and can be an erstwhile companion.

Re: I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:18 am
by stiiiiiiive
I have a DMMTT as well and it’s a cool pedal too (I’m addict…)
Way wilder than any Moog delay.

I wouldn’t say the 104 is brighter than the 104M. I’d say that it’s more “rhythmic”; it has a more clicky tail while the 104M ends more in a pad. The later can remind the EHX Deluxe Memory Boy, by the way.

Re: I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:59 pm
by _DemonDan_
One thing that I've changed my mind about Delays that lock to MIDI Clock:

I used to think that it was a really important feature but, I've found that I almost always prefer a Delay Time that's been set by hand to be near (but not exactly on) a unit of the beat.

The slight smearing you get by being slightly off time is far more sonically interesting than a perfectly-locked repeat.

Obviously, Tap Tempo can be useful for this but, I find that I still like carefully-hand-tweaked Delay Times even better.

Re: I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:29 am
by Vsyevolod
I'm with Dan on the 'set the delay time by hand' usage.

I've personally never thought that I'd want to sync any of my Foogers up (and I do have duplicates of most of them), they just sound so good when I run them in series and without any MIDI.

I can't recommend any of them in particular as you've not stated what style of music you play. All of the Foogers get a lot of use in my studio, though my personal favourite is running two Phasers in series.



Re: I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:54 pm
by stewdio
Another agreement about setting delays by ear - I have a 104M and when I first got it I was synching to MIDI clock constantly. A short stretch of studio re-arranging made that inconvenient to do for a few weeks until I got my MIDI act back together and since hooking MIDI back up I've yet to synch it a single time in 6 months even though it's plugged in and ready to do so at any time. By ear seems more musical and interesting and interactive to me now.

Keep your 104Z and enjoy the $250 you saved!

Re: I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:25 pm
by Kirneh Ness
A store nearby has one 104Z in stock. It is new and goes for around € 700. I am thinking seriously about it as the 104 in general has almost vanished from the market in Europe. Still, I hear that in mid-February some 104Ms should become available. I don't care about midi functionality, so I do fear missing the boat entirely if these re unsubstantiated rumors. But tap tempo IS a nice feature in live situations. So I gamble, and wait a little hoping to get an M instead of a Z.

To the original poster: The MF 101 is REALLY nice to have as a guitar player, as the envelope follower can be used to control any other MF functionality by guitar (directly or via the CP 251). The possibilities are, as usual, endless. (Oh, and the Low Pass filter is quite good as well :D .)

Re: I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:36 pm
by stiiiiiiive
To be honest I never connected my 104 via MIDI. It's been months though since I thought "Ooh I should try the ramp parameter on time setting"... Will definitely try it soon!
About setting the time by hand, I like it too for the same reason: it's more interesting to have a nice little drift. I tend to use the tap tempo in a band where I play bass parts on a LP, harmonies on a poly and sing... quite useful in that situation. But in another band, I try to set the delay by hand so that I don't hear any time jump when I want to have it drifting slightly.

stewdio wrote:Keep your 104Z and enjoy the $250 you saved!

That :)

Re: I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:31 pm
by Alien8
I really love the 104Z for its trail off and its EQ in the mix. It has a tendency to just sit behind what you are doing over top in a very beautiful way. The gritty tail really helps this along I find.

The other advantage of the Z is the insert. You have an additional drive to add to make it even gnarlier.

Re: I may have screwed up....bought Moog 104z

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:03 pm
by ImNotDedYet
I've had my 104M SD for over a year now and have never hooked it up via MIDI for use with my Sub37, Rhodes, Wurlie, or re-amped soft synths. There's something about the timing not being perfect IMO, and while it may be nice to modulate some things via MIDI - I find it much more pleasurable to record my signal, re-amp it and play with the dials myself.

Having said that, prices are getting way up there for the M and M-SD now that they're discontinued. I don't know if I had a Z, that it would be worth it personally.

I also have a Clusterflux, which is beautiful with the Sub or really any kind of signal. (love it on my Rhodes) I also have never hooked it up via MIDI although there are some more capabilities when doing that. I've been keen on adding the Ring Mod and strongly considered the phaser as well. (wound up going EHX for the phaser for price and just to have a different tone) I think any of these would be great with you Sub37.

Finally, I have a CP-251, which is an incredible piece as well for doing some whacked out CV with the Sub37, an expression pedal and either of these Foogers.