New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

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Croyote
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New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by Croyote » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:52 am

Well a lot of talk has been brewing on TGP and other forums. It looks like someone finally stepped up to the plate to make an accurate Panasonic MN3005 BBD chip clone available. That person was none other than Howard Davis, the designer of the EHX Memory Man.

The chip is being produced by a Chinese factory under the direction of the company XVIVE. In addition to putting their new chip into the Howard Davis approved pedal the XVIVE W3 Analog Delay, XVIVE has made the chips available on the open market.

The XVIVE W3 Delay is an impressive take on the classic Memory Man, but it's not enough for a musician like me that has been totally spoiled by the versatility of the Moog MF-104M, MF-104MSD, and the EHX Deluxe Memory Man 1100 w/ Tap Tempo.

Most of the chips from the first run have already been bought up, but if Moog got their hands on them or can get in on the next run I want to see what they can do with them.

You can order the chips here:

http://smallbear-electronics.mybigcomme ... ive-audio/ (Already sold out)
http://www.diyguitarpedals.com.au/shop/ ... cts_id=416 (A few left!)

This is a demo of the pedal I found, but the tester uses the drive knob too cranked imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2-JvbVK8IA]

I know that most of the Moog Delays used MN3008 chips, but MN3005 actually provide a longer delay with more clarity and headroom. I think Moog used the MN3008 only because they were what was available in sufficient quantities to build a pedal on a large scale.

karm
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by karm » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:57 am

and also
http://cabintechglobal.com?tab=semi&prod=MN3005(Taking preorders)

They are even showing up on Ebay now...

THX5
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by THX5 » Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:09 am

++1

Yes, Moog, please somehow replace or resurrect the 104M, 104M SD, etc. It is just "cruel" that ALL the new demo videos (including Moog's own videos) that showcase Moog's newest and greatest products (Sub 37, Mother 32, etc) ALL show these products being used with a 104M and the wonderful sounds that emerge from the pair. It's like we're being teased with "look what you COULD do, but you CAN'T because we don't make one of these anymore" :cry:

I say all of this very tounge-in-cheek, of course, because I realize if Moog had a supply of the necessary chips, that they'd be cranking out delays like there's no tomorrow, based upon the pent up demand for the 104M's and the prices sellers are fetching for them on ebay, reverb, etc.

I realize we have the Mini's, but they're just not the same as the Moogerfoogers (although the Mini's are great in their own league).

Are there any plans or efforts underway by Moog to come out with a replacement or resurrected version of the 104M? Please, just any glimmer of hope? :D
Sub37 | Minitaur | Slim Phatty | MF-104M | MF-108M | MF-103 | CP-251 | 500 Series Ladder & Analog Delay | Strymon Big Sky
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Croyote
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by Croyote » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:12 pm

Looks like the old delay is back on the market . . . Either Sweetwater was sitting on a stash or Moog Music came across more MN 3008s (or perhaps they are using Davis' new chip?)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MF104M

This kinda sucks since I just blew a lot of credit on a Super Delay (almost $1300), but it is soooooo much better than the 104M as I recall.

THX5
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by THX5 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:10 am

I was able to pick up an MF-104M from Sweetwater this weekend :D !

My salesman at Sweetwater said that Moog was able to cobble together a VERY LIMITED number of MF-104M's with an exclusive distribution with only Sweetwater and one European vendor. He also said that this would "probably" be the last run of MF-104M's EVER because it's just been too hard to find the necessary components (chips). There are quite a few counterfeit and "clone" chips out there that aren't up to Moog's very high standards and it's gotten to the point that finding authentic, quality chips is becoming almost impossible.

In other words, if you want to pick up an authentic and original MF-104M, better buy one TODAY, because the odds of Moog being able to find all the components to make more are getting slimmer and slimmer. Sweetwater expects to sell out their stock THIS WEEKEND.

Obviously, Moog may be able to make a replacement for the MF-104M's using a different set of components, etc, but no idea if and when that may happen.

Good luck!
Sub37 | Minitaur | Slim Phatty | MF-104M | MF-108M | MF-103 | CP-251 | 500 Series Ladder & Analog Delay | Strymon Big Sky
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Croyote
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by Croyote » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:59 am

THX5 wrote:There are quite a few counterfeit and "clone" chips out there that aren't up to Moog's very high standards and it's gotten to the point that finding authentic, quality chips is becoming almost impossible.
Lol. It sounds like you are trying to add to the hype! I'm seriously fighting myself on buying one . . . Y'all ain't making it any easier.

Back to the chips thing . . . the new chip that HOWARD DAVIS designed is not a CHEAP CLONE. This is a BBD that was developed for years. You have to remember that Howard Davis was the one who designed the Electro-Harmonix Memory Man. There would be NO Moog Delay at all if it weren't for the Memory Man. The Memory Man set the standard for many years, and when Moog finally got around to it they decided to find out if they could improve on the analog delay design and they did.

The Memory Man through it's years of development utilized various BBD chips in its design but most importantly the Panasonic MN3005 and the Panasonic MN 3008. Each MN 3005 has twice as many delay stages, allows the potential to get twice the delay time, and has a better signal-to-noise ratio than the MN 3008, but it requires a higher voltage to operate functionally. The MN3005 was much more widely used in the industrial world and generally harder to come by as a result, so most pedals were built using MN3008s. I think that all of the Moog Delays were built with the MN3008.

One of the awesome things that Moog accomplished was that they figured out how to get 200ms of pretty clear delay out of each MN3008 chip, whereas everyone else only seemed capable of yielding about 100-150ms from each chip before noise became a problem. Perhaps this was due to the advanced filtering that Moog Music has developed over the years, or just an advanced level of engineering. EHX generally would use 2 MN3005s or 4 MN3008s in a Memory Man to yield about 600ms. The more recent Deluxe Memory Man 1100 had a max delay of 1100-1200ms and used 4 NOS Panasonic MN3005 chips, but those who've owned the Moog Delays side by side will tell you that the DMM1100 w/ TT has a much more obvious level of clock noise and aliasing that for some makes it unusable on the longest delay settings.

Essentially, EHX has been able get 300ms out of each MN3005 chip. If we follow the previous suggestion that Moog is capable of yielding more delay time out of each chips it gets it's hands on we are looking at a potential 450ms-600ms yield for each chip. Perhaps, then it would be possible for Moog to actually acheive about 2 full seconds+ of analog delay with the same number of chips as the MF-104M has (4 MN3008s) and even longer if they build a delay similar to the Super Delays. The only thing to take into consideration is Howard Davis' own admission that his new chip has a slightly higher noise ratio than the original MN3005, but with Moog's low pass and ladder filters that may not be much of an issue.

Just keeping my fingers crossed that Moog keeps evolving the Delay technology with the times . . .

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Gladmarr
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by Gladmarr » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:27 pm

THX5 wrote:My salesman at Sweetwater said that Moog was able to cobble together a VERY LIMITED number of MF-104M's with an exclusive distribution with only Sweetwater and one European vendor. He also said that this would "probably" be the last run of MF-104M's EVER because it's just been too hard to find the necessary components (chips). There are quite a few counterfeit and "clone" chips out there that aren't up to Moog's very high standards and it's gotten to the point that finding authentic, quality chips is becoming almost impossible.
That's funny, considering they're available on Amazon as well.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008G1IDL ... ref=plSrch
Image

THX5
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by THX5 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:26 pm

Yep, that is interesting.

Just reporting what I was told. YMMV :wink:
Sub37 | Minitaur | Slim Phatty | MF-104M | MF-108M | MF-103 | CP-251 | 500 Series Ladder & Analog Delay | Strymon Big Sky
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Croyote
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by Croyote » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:37 pm

That's funny, considering they're available on Amazon as well.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008G1IDL ... ref=plSrch[/quote]

GearNuts=Sweetwater So it's the same company.

THX5
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by THX5 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:52 pm

Croyote wrote:
GearNuts=Sweetwater So it's the same company.
Makes sense. I also confirmed directly with Moog sales that this is a limited run exclusively for Sweetwater and a European vendor.
Sub37 | Minitaur | Slim Phatty | MF-104M | MF-108M | MF-103 | CP-251 | 500 Series Ladder & Analog Delay | Strymon Big Sky
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Gladmarr
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by Gladmarr » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:41 pm

Well, I guess I wasn't so smart after all.
Image

Croyote
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EHX already using the chip in the Deluxe Memory Man 1100

Post by Croyote » Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:17 am

It looks like EHX released a batch of their Deluxe Memory Man 1100 w/ Tap Tempo w/ Howard Davis' new Xvive Panasonic MN 3005 BBD chip clone.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MemoryMan1100

The cheaper cost of the chip and greater availability has cut the cost to the buyer of this pedal in half. $358!

When the pedal was unobtainium last year, I sold mine with the original NOS Panasonic MN3005 BBDs for over $700 (it sold within 2 hours of listing!) and I almost bought another one a few months ago for $650. Up until a couple of weeks ago you would see them listed new for over and around $1000.

Sweetwater is showing their ethical excellence by selling the pedal for very close to (and less than) it's list price. Several of the dealers have received the new batches of the pedals but are charging the recent jacked up prices over and around $700. Buyers beware.

The new MN3005XVIVE BBD chip is excellent enough for EHX to have to incorporate it into their top-notch designs, but it's cheap and available enough that buyers should not have to pay through the nose to experience it's sonic/aural beauty.

Croyote
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by Croyote » Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:30 am

The reviews of the new chip are starting to roll in.

Unless the desire is to create a delay with a really long echo, it may be a good idea to stick w/ the MN3008s.

I ended up purchasing another MF-104MSD in the Fall, and I just don't think the sounds can be beat at all. It's sooooo smooth, clear and clean yet also syrupy and dark when I need it. I'm in LOVE. :D

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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by _DemonDan_ » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:11 pm

I have to concur with Croyote.

Having an MF-104Z, two MF-104Ms, and an MF-104MSD, I find myself preferring the MF-104MSD every time in every category of judging.

Its clarity, the quality of the repeats after 20+ iterations, and its ability to respond in extreme ways to modulation make it my undisputed favorite of the three. I'm seriously considering finding a second one to go with it.
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

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fuzulu
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Re: New Panasonic BBD Chip Clone - Moog Please Make a Delay

Post by fuzulu » Sun May 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Thats really interesting infos on this thread croyote

Man i have the mf104m and almost got the mf104msd when it came out to use together in stereo but didnt pull the trigger....
Damn reading this now im repenting big time, I knew then I was gonna miss somethin killa but it was fuckin exp

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