MF104M Midi Controller Question

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moogatu
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MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by moogatu » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:28 am

Hello,

My name is Chris and I'm new here to the forum. I've been a big fan of Moog products for several years now and finally got my first Moogerfooger. A 2013 White Oak MF-104M Analog Delay. It's been my holy grail of delays and I finally bit the bullet and grabbed one. I'm absolutely loving it so far and it is a step above for sure. Most delays I've had have all been pretty good, but this one is set apart from the rest.

Anyway, I have a question regarding a specific MIDI controller. I could not find any info online about it and I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to MIDI.

I plan to keep my Moogerfooger on top of my amp in the Effects Loop. Does anyone know if I can use a Tech 21 Midi Mouse: http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/effec ... mouse.html to change presets with the Moog? For example, Preset 1 (delay off), Preset 2 (long delay), Preset 3 (slapback), Preset 4 (delay with modulation), etc.

Anyone have any experience w/ the Midi Mouse and the MF104M? Can it handle all of the required changes? My goal is to keep my Moogerfooger on top of my amp in the effects loop and just have a Midi Controller out front changing delay presets.

Thanks everyone!
Chris

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facon
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by facon » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:48 am

The Tech21 pedals only send PCs (Program Changes). In order to control your Moogerfooger, you need something to send CCs (Control Changes). The Moogs have no internal preset memory. Unfortunately, most midi foot controllers aren't set up to send a bunch of CCs. Usually CCs are used for real time control of a single knob. Currently there are 36 functions that can be controlled by midi CCs.

There is the Moog MP-201. It's discontinued, pricey and pretty large. I haven't tried one, but would like to. I just can't bring myself to buy one used for close to or more than the price they were when new.

You could use the Midi Mouse to control a different preset box like the Molten Voltage Osmosis or Midi Solutions Event Processor. The Osmosis will send 16 CCs and the Event Processor will send 10 (or 32 for the Plus). Both use a computer to program, or you can add the SIMI for the Osmosis.

You could use a Rocktron Midi Mate if you only want to change a few things. I think it will send 5 CCs at once? The Rocktron Midi Raider sends 36, but it's pretty big and probably only makes sense if you have a midi bypass looper and some more functions you want to control.

There is a thread here on a preset box. But you need to know Arduino and it's not setup to recall presets from midi PCs. It's a standalone box.

Unfortunately, it's not as easy as you would think to have presets for the Moogerfoogers. I've been asking Moog for one for years, but I don't know that it will ever happen. If somebody made one of these, Moog would be grabbing customers from Strymon, Eventide, Line6 and many others that use pedals because of their preset memory. I also think the "Midi" added to the name of the pedals are confusing for people outside of the synth world. Usually, in a stombox, if a guitar is midi capable, it means it has presets that can be called up from midi PCs.

moogatu
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by moogatu » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:36 am

Facon,

Thanks for the reply, it was incredibly helpful. I guess I can scratch the Midi Mouse off of my list.

- Looking into Molten Voltage products - that seems like it might be up my alley, being able to change presets with a small footprint
- Are there any other simple midi foot controllers that can handle the Moogerfooger? I'm feeling like Molten Voltage is the way to go.

- My other idea is to just have my pedal on top of my amp, and run a couple of expression pedals on the floor to change parameters in real time, but that can be almost as costly as getting a simple midi controller.

Thanks!
Chris

facon wrote:The Tech21 pedals only send PCs (Program Changes). In order to control your Moogerfooger, you need something to send CCs (Control Changes). The Moogs have no internal preset memory. Unfortunately, most midi foot controllers aren't set up to send a bunch of CCs. Usually CCs are used for real time control of a single knob. Currently there are 36 functions that can be controlled by midi CCs.

There is the Moog MP-201. It's discontinued, pricey and pretty large. I haven't tried one, but would like to. I just can't bring myself to buy one used for close to or more than the price they were when new.

You could use the Midi Mouse to control a different preset box like the Molten Voltage Osmosis or Midi Solutions Event Processor. The Osmosis will send 16 CCs and the Event Processor will send 10 (or 32 for the Plus). Both use a computer to program, or you can add the SIMI for the Osmosis.

You could use a Rocktron Midi Mate if you only want to change a few things. I think it will send 5 CCs at once? The Rocktron Midi Raider sends 36, but it's pretty big and probably only makes sense if you have a midi bypass looper and some more functions you want to control.

There is a thread here on a preset box. But you need to know Arduino and it's not setup to recall presets from midi PCs. It's a standalone box.

Unfortunately, it's not as easy as you would think to have presets for the Moogerfoogers. I've been asking Moog for one for years, but I don't know that it will ever happen. If somebody made one of these, Moog would be grabbing customers from Strymon, Eventide, Line6 and many others that use pedals because of their preset memory. I also think the "Midi" added to the name of the pedals are confusing for people outside of the synth world. Usually, in a stombox, if a guitar is midi capable, it means it has presets that can be called up from midi PCs.

Sculptair
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by Sculptair » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:42 am

For the functionality you seem to be looking for, you are going in the right direction. You owe it to yourself to check out the top of the line midi foot controllers by FAMC music. Even the smallest of their controllers can do all that you ask, plus much more as you develope your system. I use mine to switch my amp channel, turn on the effects loop, engage the reverb, toggle the graphic eq, select the delay preset and change parameters in real time with an expression pedal, and select the preset on my synth pedals all with the click of a single button. I have configured mine to step through a set list and present me with all of the current songs presets to step through. As the moment strikes I can also go rogue and improvise with access to all of my midi enabled eq and their parameters on the fly. Have fun!
Sculptair

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stiiiiiiive
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by stiiiiiiive » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:45 am

Midi Solutions proposes some little boxes, few of which are programmable. Check them out.

Did not know about FMAC, thanks!

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_DemonDan_
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by _DemonDan_ » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:59 pm

The Novation ZeRO SL MKII MIDI Controller (or any of its keyboard versions) is exceptionally good at controlling all of the Moogerfoogers' parameters with one box. And you can have all of the parameters labeled on its long display screen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74S-FgRdtoY
(Start at 10:26 for MIDI Control)
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

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bichuelo
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by bichuelo » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:08 pm

I am using a Roland A-Pro and it works really well too. You are able to use it without a computer and it can send Sysex too. You can even assign any CC to the aftertouch.
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moodwood
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by moodwood » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:21 am

Everybody here is talking about hardware solutions to control presets for the MF-104M – what about controlling it with a computer / DAW?
I recently bought the MF-105M which comes with a VST plugin that lets you control every parameter instantly, and I know that I could do similar things with customized MIDI-surfaces (or MAX for live) in Ableton.
The MF-105M VST plugin has a special button to transmit a whole preset though and I'm not sure how I'd do that for the MF-104M.

Doable? Issues? All suggestions and informations are welcome :)
I basically live in Internetland.

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stiiiiiiive
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by stiiiiiiive » Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:00 am

Hey Moodwood, welcome :)

I guess sending a pack of MIDI control messages will do the job.

MSPR
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by MSPR » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:46 pm

Hey Guys,

I'm new here :) Just noticed this thread and thought I'd offer my thoughts:

I've been controlling my Moogerfoogers (MF-104 & MF-108) successfully with Ableton live and a Disaster Area Midi controller (DMC8D). Using Ableton, it's really easy to send Midi CC out to the Foogers, allowing for unlimited presets. If you're familiar with Ableton, you'll know about clips etc, but basically, you can automate all the midi cc parameters by 'drawing' in curves to the clip envelope - this could be a bar long or 100 bars etc.

Not the cheapest solution, but definitely allows for experimentation and is very stable.

Cheers!

grenert
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by grenert » Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:52 pm

Hey, _DemonDan_, just watched that video again (one of the reasons I got the delay in the first place!). Does Novation have Moogerfooger presets already available for their controllers?
Moog stuff: Slim Phatty, Minitaur, Mother-32, Werkstatt x2, MF-103, MF-104M, MF-108M
Running Moog software on Win7 64-bit
Dreams of a Voyager XL some day...

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_DemonDan_
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by _DemonDan_ » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:00 pm

grenert wrote:Hey, _DemonDan_, just watched that video again (one of the reasons I got the delay in the first place!). Does Novation have Moogerfooger presets already available for their controllers?

Sorry, no. I made those right before I made the video by looking at the MIDI Implementation Chart
and then assigning sliders and buttons to the CC#s I wanted to control.

I didn't even save the template as it only took me a few minutes to make.
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

Teetonetal
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by Teetonetal » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:35 am

It's a real shame moog never developed software for the delay and clusterflux, I have a murf coming in the post and was stoked to hear there was an app. Seems odd from Moog though to ignore the other 2.

Question regarding the Novation ZeRO SL MKII MIDI Controller:

Within 1 template can you send messages to 3 different midi channel? i.e if I have something like the midi solutions quadra through connected to the 104, 105, 108 and the Novation ZeRO SL MKII MIDI Controller, can I assign some controls to each moogerfooger.. and can the templates be saved and recalled?

this seems like a solution I've been looking for for a while as I want desktop control over the foogers whilst being fed audio from a looper.

If the answers to my questions are yes, then this board just made my day :)

Oh, Hi by the way.

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_DemonDan_
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by _DemonDan_ » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:18 am

Teetonetal wrote:It's a real shame Moog never developed software for the Delay and Clusterflux, I have a MuRF coming in the post and was stoked to hear there was an app. Seems odd from Moog though to ignore the other 2.

Hi Teetonetal,

It's actually much less odd than you think.

The MIDI MuRF Editor is used to do things that are simply impossible to do on the MIDI MuRF itself or with simple MIDI Messages.

There are only a handful of things that can't be done directly on an MF-104M or Clusterflux, and pretty much all of those can be done with a MIDI CC message, Note On, or Pitch Bend.

Teetonetal wrote:Question regarding the Novation ZeRO SL MKII MIDI Controller:
Within 1 template can you send messages to 3 different MIDI Channels?
i.e if I have something like the MIDI Solutions Quadra Thru connected to the MF-104M, MF-105M, MF-108M, and the Novation ZeRO SL MKII MIDI Controller, can I assign some controls to each moogerfooger.. and can the templates be saved and recalled?

Yes on all of the above.
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

Teetonetal
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Re: MF104M Midi Controller Question

Post by Teetonetal » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:11 pm

_DemonDan_ wrote:
Teetonetal wrote:It's a real shame Moog never developed software for the Delay and Clusterflux, I have a MuRF coming in the post and was stoked to hear there was an app. Seems odd from Moog though to ignore the other 2.

Hi Teetonetal,

It's actually much less odd than you think.

The MIDI MuRF Editor is used to do things that are simply impossible to do on the MIDI MuRF itself or with simple MIDI Messages.

There are only a handful of things that can't be done directly on an MF-104M or Clusterflux, and pretty much all of those can be done with a MIDI CC message, Note On, or Pitch Bend.

Teetonetal wrote:Question regarding the Novation ZeRO SL MKII MIDI Controller:
Within 1 template can you send messages to 3 different MIDI Channels?
i.e if I have something like the MIDI Solutions Quadra Thru connected to the MF-104M, MF-105M, MF-108M, and the Novation ZeRO SL MKII MIDI Controller, can I assign some controls to each moogerfooger.. and can the templates be saved and recalled?

Yes on all of the above.


Awesome. Made my day!

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