Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon?

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modul8tr
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Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon?

Post by modul8tr » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:54 am

Hey all,

Buying a Sub Phatty this weekend and was planning to get a Moog 104M to go with it. I LOVE the sound of the 104M, but due to the cost of it, I have to at least weigh other options before making the final decision. Another necessary piece for me is the Zvex Lo-Fi Junky, however I can emulate this in Ableton right now, and even if I buy the Moogerfooger, I can still have two of these by mid summer.

As of now I'm considering the Pittsburg Modular Cell 48 System 2, which looks like it would be a ton of fun to play with and it's bucket brigade based :

http://pittsburghmodular.com/news/annou ... ducts.html
http://pittsburghmodular.com/cell-48-system-2/

It also ticks a few other boxes and gives me an analog sequencer as well. Something I'd like eventually, but not enough to pay the $600-700 it takes to have a full blown dedicated sequencer *right now*. I also purchased a Little Phatty with CV Out recently, and I think the System 2 could interplay with the two Moogs quite nicely. Additionally this gets me into a modular synth (something I'm planning) once I pick up a System 1 or 3 to go along with it.

The other options are the Strymon Timeline, or two El Capistans. Or a Timeline and a Zvex Lo-fi Junky (not the looper). Two Zvex Junky's were already on my gear acquisition list, so the Timeline/Junky combo would get me one of them. The Moog 104m can also give me that lovely warm tape like warble though.

A lot to think about. Looking for opinions from the board.

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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by unfiltered37 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:59 am

Space echo, roland stage echo, or moog 104(m). Both are amazing, and I couldn't live without either. The moog is way cleaner and more predictable, and way more flexible, while the tape delay is the most analog sounding processor I have ever heard. The korg has cv in so you can sweep the speed, but I imagine it has to be pretty slow, while the moog can jump around speeds very quickly, which is an unbelievably cool tool. Sequencing the delay time is a wonderful amazing effect. With the sub and either or both of these delays, you will have a formidable sound, close to the quality of a model D or oberheim SEM.

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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by Alien8 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:28 am

The Timeline is a great pedal, lots of really useful sounds and settings. You have a lot of MIdi accessibility with it too - pretty sure you could use CV with the expression input, but check with Strymon first. Does it do the Moog sound. Simply put - no - but it comes close. It lacks in the ability to overload the delay chain with noise, leading to a crunchy, glitchy result after some time. The Timeline is very smooth, and doesn't get overly harsh like the moog can. It does have the lofi delay which is fantastic for my use.

If its Moog sound you want get the Moog.

If its a tape sound you want on a budget, Strymon and Empress are the way to go - for new gear at least.
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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by logsnob » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:39 pm

I think it comes down to if you want a nice clean digital delay or a dark/murky analog delay. I've tried a lot of delays and I still go back to the boss space echo pedal the most, it just has that signature twist up oscillation, it doesn't sound that great but after some eq and processing it can be beefed up. It's basically a portable space echo that won't malfunction, so until I can find a real tape delay thats not overpriced I will keep it.

I haven't figured out how to use my El Capistan with CV control yet and I was kinda dissapointed in the El Cap, it's just too flat sounding, I dunno, it's just so small and fragile...I was just kinda underwhelmed by it, especially after dropping $315 on it. I'm considering selling off my delays and just getting a moog now that I'm getting into CV. If anyone is interested in trading for El Cap + $ for a moog let me know.

I've come to realize it's not so much the delay but the preamp before the delay that can make all the difference. Keep an eye out for an old analog yamaha e1005 or ibanez ad202. The elctrix Mo-Fx has midi, is analog but ditally controlled and is fun to use also. I just found out that effectrons can use CV controls, those are some of the best sounding (and fun to use) vintage digi delays so I'm on the hunt for one now. I suppose the Koma delay is a cool option for CV control, but from the samples I've heard online it's not a traditional delay and more of a sound mangler noisey bit crusher.

What are some other delays that can use CV control a la CP-251/moogerfoogers? I still don't understand if anything with an expression pedal input can be used with CV or if the signal needs to be attenuated to match somehow. Can someone clarify?
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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by stiiiiiiive » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:42 pm

Expression pedales inputs can be used as CV ins. Hence, Electro Harmonix Deluxe Memory Boy or Deluxe Memory Man with tap tempo are candidates, with only one input though.

modul8tr
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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by modul8tr » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:40 pm

Thanks guys for your insights! This is giving me a lot to think about.

@unfiltered37 I considered the Roland, Korg, and The Echoplex and they're brilliant, I'd looked into the maintenance on them, some people say it's easy, others found it to be a pain. This would be a very important device for me that would see A LOT of use. I already have other classical instruments, electric guitars etc. that require regular care and maintenance and for some of them it's quite costly, not to mention the effort of driving out to the various technicians on all the scheduled dates. I just don't want to add another thing to that list, and I plan on buying UAD which has fantastic maintenance free emulations of those devices. Also, I have a reel to reel, so I can add genuine warbly tape flavor to whatever I want, when I need it. So for me it would be the Moog 104M, combined with my tape machine and eventually the UAD Echoplex & Space Echo emulations. That could give me a lot of texture/color. BTW I am loving the sound of the 104M in spillover mode! It seems it basically turns into a thick gooey echo.


@Alien8 The Timeline does look fantastic, however, if I do Strymon I am currently leaning toward the Brigadier / El Capistan combo. Not sure why I hadn't realized it before, but those will really give me at least 90% of the sound I seek from Zvex Lofi Junky. I'll have two, so I can use them on both of the Moogs while running to tape. Plus they have stereo capabilities, and combined with a Reamp I can run the Arturia CS-80 through it to tape. The Strymons give me a flexibilty as far as integration into *my* setup, and doing as much outside my computer *at once* as possible *with* tactile control, that the Moog doesn't at the expense of tone. How much tone, is another question. Also, the Moog integrates with my Moog Synths in a way that the Strymons don't and has really nice midi control. And your right it seems the Moog gets dirtier.

Here are a few video comparisons:

http://youtu.be/ZbD5NkuqRjA Here's the Brigadier used on a Prophet '08 and a Model D. Ignore the first cheesy Prophet '08 sample, on the others it's got a really nice dark quality that I felt was quite similar to the Moog. It sounds fantastic on the Model D.

http://youtu.be/ih1QVgRWqnY Here's the Moog in spillover mode on a Minibrute.

http://youtu.be/RYo3EGMCHrU Modular sequence played into Moog. I believe it's in spillover.

The Brigadier has that dark, warm sound for sure. Plus it has the detune/warble I crave. It has stereo capability. The Brigadier/El Capistan combo could potentially give me more flexibility for now. And I could run them to tape for extra flavor/depth. So right now it's really between this combo and the 104M.


@logsnob You mean the Boss Roland SE20? I'm probably going to go the UAD route on that at some point. From everything I've heard I like the El Capistan. But it's possible we are attracted to different aspects of its sound. It doesn't have the grit of the old Rolands, or the Echoplex, but I think I could make up for that somewhat with my reel to reel. I had an interest in the Zvex Lofi Junky and it gives me that pitch warble along with echo. Plus I can run stereo sources in.

Strymon's Brigadier captures that dark analog sound, so it's not quite the bright sparkly digital delay vs. the dark analog. It's dark enough that it is worthy of direct comparison to the Moog 104m. The Moog ultimately is deeper and probably sounds better to some degree.

I 'll look into the preamps you mentioned!

Now that I'm looking more into the Moog spillover mode (which my ear loves), the 104M is basically a delay and a spacey echo. But the echo is very thick and gooey. It can integrate with my Moog synths in interesting ways and it has MIDI which the Strymons don't.

As I learned in my analogue synth search, it all came down to tone. Maybe it's worth it to be limited for a while longer and grab the Moog 104 now before they're gone and prices soar again.

Anyway, the Strymon Brigadier/El Capistan combo or 104M is where I'm at. Zvex Lofi Junkys are out if I go the Strymon route. Making progress :)

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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by Alien8 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:27 pm

So here's my further input then - looking in from the outside.

You want a Moog.

The differences in tone are vastly different. Strymon pedals are awesome for that wash, long decay clarity that becomes ethereal & dimension evolving. The stereo field helps this as well. The Timeline gets away from this a bit with some modes, the Brigadier & El Cap are very specifically ethereal. The Moog is this to a degree, but then takes on a whole other character. A playability that digital does not emulate. It becomes this thing that you feed and watch grow, while the Strymon are more like the picture you paint from an idea. Both evolving, but one is almost living.

I bought the Timeline only because I wanted both, and had the 104z already. I own the clusterflux, and together they produce a very similar tone to the 104M, but again different. The Timeline fills in everything that the Moogs just don't do - most software can do it too BTW.

More things to consider: effects loop Insert on the Moog. Huge potential here for added textures. Midi is great too. I use both of these features extensively. Midi control via my iPhone in a live setting is great to get into the clock multiplayer lofi dissonance the Moog offers.

The other reason why I went Timeline was for these two above reasons, midi & fx loop. I love the Timeline, but I will never part with the Moog.

In summary: Strymon has stereo (in & out) ethereal tones that venture into wacky with some added on the fly tweaking. Moog has the effect loop, false stereo for delay signal, Midi, glitching, all consuming mangling devouring tone. The Strymon is a delay, the Moog a synth tool ;)

Looking forward to your music!
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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by EricK » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:56 pm

You might be able to find an old Space Echo deck for the price of the Moog delay if you get lucky and want to maintain it.

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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by Vsyevolod » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:54 am

Not to sound too cheeky, though you do get what you pay for. If what you want is cheap, you will sound that way. If what you want is quality, it may take some time, and yet you will finally get there, assuming you can keep your job long enough. There's a real reason that people are paying good money for Moog boxes. Not only do they sound good, with CV you can seriously FSU.

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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by cugel » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:24 am

I briefly had a Timeline. For me it did not come close to the sound of the moog. There just seems to something with digital that does not work for me, no matter what the Nyquist theorem says. Sold it at a loss.

Avoid my mistake, if you hear things the same way as I do, and go with the moog directly. Now I have a 104 and a 104M! :D

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Portamental
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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by Portamental » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:07 pm

I waited a long time to get an MF-104, never considered anything else. I jumped on the MF-104M when it finally came about. It did not disappoint me. Put an MF-101 in front it, grab a guitar and you ARE Jimmi Hendrix ;)

modul8tr
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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by modul8tr » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:05 pm

Alien8 wrote:So here's my further input then - looking in from the outside.

You want a Moog.

Strymon pedals are awesome for that wash, long decay clarity that becomes ethereal & dimension evolving. The stereo field helps this as well. The Timeline gets away from this a bit with some modes, the Brigadier & El Cap are very specifically ethereal. The Moog is this to a degree, but then takes on a whole other character. A playability that digital does not emulate. It becomes this thing that you feed and watch grow, while the Strymon are more like the picture you paint from an idea. Both evolving, but one is almost living.

More things to consider: effects loop Insert on the Moog. Huge potential here for added textures. Midi is great too. I use both of these features extensively. Midi control via my iPhone in a live setting is great to get into the clock multiplayer lofi dissonance the Moog offers.

In summary: Strymon has stereo (in & out) ethereal tones that venture into wacky with some added on the fly tweaking. Moog has the effect loop, false stereo for delay signal, Midi, glitching, all consuming mangling devouring tone. The Strymon is a delay, the Moog a synth tool ;)
Wow, I think you totally nailed something I had been picking up unconsciously, which is *playability*. People tend to endlessly play/tweak the Moog, whereas with the Strymon's, they sort of set it and forget it. This may be partially due to the differences between guitarists and synthesists, but I think it has more to do with the brilliance of Moog's "tweak me" design.

And expression/playability was the foundation of the idea behind creating this setup. I want to generate as much sound as possible outside the box using select analogue machines (and acoustic instruments) with lots of character. The outside the box concept will extend to reamping and worldizing sounds. The computer relegated to multitrack recording, editing, and sampling.

I hadn't really looked into the fx loop until now, and yes, it is pretty exciting :D Perhaps a great way to get the ethereal washiness that I'll want on occasion, or to get dirty with Multidrive using the audio input on Sub Phatty, and/or tape saturation on the reel to reel for that Echoplexy grit/edge. That gets the juices flowing!

I like the MIDI features and I really dig some of the more under the hood techniques like underclocking in this vid:

http://youtu.be/xozYe-cv8h0

On a side note, I first saw this video the same night I watched "Beyond The Black Rainbow" and thought, wow, you could generate a few cues for that film by underclocking the Moog and adding some nice melodies on top. It's a sound that matches the visual texture of the film quite nicely. That said, I am not sure how safe it is for the BBD chips and won't be "abusing" the Moogerfooger until I talk to someone at Moog.


Regarding a few other points brought up in this thread, I eliminated the Strymon Timeline a few nights ago. The Brigadier and Capistan were more interesting to my ear, and I could do all of the cleaner Timeline stuff in my computer anyway.

As of this moment, it looks like the Moogerfooger has justified its spot in my little machine army.

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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by nathanscribe » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:43 am

Anybody compared the Moog to the EHX DMM w/TT1100? I picked up the DMM mainly because it was half the price of the Moog, and although I think it's a good pedal I'd be interested to hear from experience how it compares to the Moog... I also have the Strymon El Cap, and it's a pretty good unit, though I do wish they'd added labels for the 2ndary features of each knob. As for 'playability', I always tweak my delays. The Strymon is kind of annoying in that the 'flat' settings are different on each knob, but apart from that it's a good tweaker. Lots more to play with than most delay pedals.

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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by stiiiiiiive » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:01 am

nathanscribe wrote:Anybody compared the Moog to the EHX DMM w/TT1100? I picked up the DMM mainly because it was half the price of the Moog, and although I think it's a good pedal I'd be interested to hear from experience how it compares to the Moog...
I have.

The DMMTT is much wilder than the MF: the repetitions have more attack, more brilliance, and the feedback can go agressive really fast. If you know the Deluxe Memory Boy, it has nothing to do with this one.
The 104M goes softer along the echoes, without having this tick-ticking the 104z has. Mellower.

The EHX has a gain setting which can provide some nice harmonics when pushed a bit. It only affectes the sound when the effect is on. I like keeping it enabled and play with the blend setting (which goes up to 100% wet like the Moog BTW) so that the gain gets my sounds more organic.

I cannot remember which one amongst the MF and the EHX has the lowest time setting, but I guess the Moog has.

The EHX has sine or triangle modulation only, which is already a good thing.

The EHX has only one CV input, but this is not about sound. Neither is the fact that holding the tap switch starts a ramp of feedback, alla Boss Space Echo reissue. This is great.

Uh... voilà. If you have specific questions, I'd be glad to answer :)

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Re: Moogerfooger 104M, Pittsburg Modular Cell 48, or Strymon

Post by nathanscribe » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:24 am

stiiiiiiive wrote:The EHX has sine or triangle modulation only, which is already a good thing.
Hmm, I like the square wave modulation of the EHX Memory Boy - though it has limited uses.
Uh... voilà. If you have specific questions, I'd be glad to answer :)
OK!

Do you know if the Moog's LFO is bipolar? I mean, does it centre around the user-set delay rate, or only add to it? I've noticed that there is quite a difference in sound using unipolar/bipolar LFO modulation on delay times.

Apart from that, thanks for the info. I like my DMM, but the Moog stuff has such good interfacing, it's hard to resist.

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