Ring Modulation Nation

Plug in here for info tips and strategies for your Moogerfooger Analog Effects. Connect more than one for plenty of fun!
Post Reply
NuGaia
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:46 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Ring Modulation Nation

Post by NuGaia » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:55 pm

Hello again Everyone,
up late again trying to save the universe! I've got a special treat for you all tonight. Ring Modulation. As a few of you have heard, I now own a Moog MF-102. I've been trying to research how players use this pedal, or others that function in the same schematic. To be honest, it's been rather rough, trenching through the internet looking for settings, tips, tricks, anything and coming up with enough of the picture that I figured out how to fill my gaps.

So this all starts off with basic addition and subtraction. Whatever frequency (or pitch) you input will be added to and subtracted from the carrier frequency (the one you set with the Freq. knob on the bottom left), which gives you two new frequencies. Now, using the mix knob on the top right you can blend your original signal with the new one, combining to three pitches coming out. If I playA4 @ 440 and set the frequency knob to C6 @ 1040 we hear F#6 @ 1480 and a rather sharp D5 @ 600, which could be interrupted as a D major triad with it's fifth (A) in the bass. Where it gets crazy is when you play notes other than A, the two "new frequencies are going to move because of the moving relationship of your source and the frequency knob.

Throughout my searches in forums I found it interesting that just about everyone referred to the Ring Modulator as it's own instrument being triggered by yours, and that thinking about it like this yields more musical results. There are a few things to take into account when playing with an instrument like this:

It is a numbers game. If you tune your frequency knob to close to a perfect unison, it could sound rather hollow, because x-x=0, so some distance between the two is a good idea. Additionally, because of the equations nature, it doesn't take into account that the amount of Hz between pitches increases as you move up through the spectrum. What this can yield is a much more stable set tones, that act more like drones, moving in 2nds instead of 5ths and 6ths. Another common production is that your descending line will have more motion, because of the nature of the spectrum.

Just for a clear example, moving up 180 Hz from 914 yields what we hear as a Major 2nd (Bb5 to C6), where as moving down 180 Hz from 653 yields what we hear as a Major 3rd (E5 to C5)

Another thing to keep in mind, you will find negative results in the subtraction side of the algorithm. What happens here is that it will fall further and further into the negative side of the spectrum. What the pedal, and additionally our ears translate this as, is it's inverse. If you cross 0, you will hear two rising pitches. If I understand correctly, it will happen when your source is playing a higher frequency than the frequency knob is set to.

So I just finished using Excel to create a pitch to Hz spreadsheet and a series of equations displaying the output pitches of two major scales. They are listed below for you to look at, along with the frequency chart. I also posted a video I found helpful on youtube. It's a 3 part series, and it's heady, but I found it helpful.

This is going to be a rather extensive research, so keep a look out for more.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Enjoy,
CJF

Thanks PSMProjectVids, I found this very useful!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=mATt_HyfhOc

Here is another helpful video I found on the web. Thanks Knobz.net!
http://vimeo.com/38672729
"Without music, life would be a mistake." - Nietzsche
christopherjfriesen.wix.com/illlp
http://www.soundcloud.com/nugaia

User avatar
red
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:44 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by red » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:37 am

Thanks for this cool master work - you must be a scientist !

(and yes I like ring modulation, too)

PS: could you please post the excel sheet (link...)
::red

ColorForm2113
Posts: 1279
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Illinois(e)

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by ColorForm2113 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:19 pm

Very thorough work, that is amazing. Thanks for putting all this together, its incredible how complex a simple ring mod can get
My modular so far: Q104, Q106 x2, Q107, Q108, Q109 x2 , Q116, Q118, Q127 w/Q140, Q130, STG Wave Folder, Mixer and Mankato playing with Moog Voyager, VX-351, CP-251, MF-104M x2 ( STEREO!) Volca Beats and Bass, Arturia Beat step

synthaxe
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:10 pm
Location: Central Illinois

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by synthaxe » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:27 pm

Wow, thank you very much for that. As with all Moogerfoogers, the MF-102 is so versatile it's not even funny!
Little Phatty Stage II, Minitaur, MF-105, MF-103, MF-102, MF-101, Mesa/Boogie Mark IV, EVH 5150III 50 Watt, EVM12L Speakers, ESP Eclipse-II FR, USA Charvel So-Cal, Squier Vintage Modified Surf Stratocaster, Alesis MidiVerb 4, and tons of Electro Harmonix.

User avatar
Voltor07
Posts: 5197
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 3:04 am
Location: Waukegan, IL USA
Contact:

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by Voltor07 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:59 pm

synthaxe wrote:Wow, thank you very much for that. As with all Moogerfoogers, the MF-102 is so versatile it's not even funny!
Everything from subtle ring modulation to heavy metal distortion. :twisted:
Minitaur, CP-251, EHX #1 Echo, EHX Space Drums/Crash Pads, QSC GX-3, Pyramid stereo power amp, Miracle Pianos, Walking Stick ribbon controller, Synthutron.com, 1983 Hammond organ, dot com modular.

synthaxe
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:10 pm
Location: Central Illinois

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by synthaxe » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:47 pm

Voltor07 wrote:
synthaxe wrote:Wow, thank you very much for that. As with all Moogerfoogers, the MF-102 is so versatile it's not even funny!
Everything from subtle ring modulation to heavy metal distortion. :twisted:
Yes sir. As Nigel Tufnel would say, "these go to 11."
Little Phatty Stage II, Minitaur, MF-105, MF-103, MF-102, MF-101, Mesa/Boogie Mark IV, EVH 5150III 50 Watt, EVM12L Speakers, ESP Eclipse-II FR, USA Charvel So-Cal, Squier Vintage Modified Surf Stratocaster, Alesis MidiVerb 4, and tons of Electro Harmonix.

User avatar
stiiiiiiive
Posts: 2545
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by stiiiiiiive » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:01 am

I don't want to put the Moog Ring Modulator in competition, nor start an analogue vs. digital debate, but I must say the EHX Ring Thing has a very cool feature: holding the secondary footswitch for one second allows to tune the internal modulator carrier on the incoming signal pitch.

As said the original poster, having the pitches matching is not that relevant when just playing one note. But in situations where the tonality changes, being able to tune the device so that the effect stays "correctly dissonant" is making the Ring Thing the most musically handy ring modulator I know.
Last edited by stiiiiiiive on Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

synthaxe
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:10 pm
Location: Central Illinois

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by synthaxe » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:05 pm

stiiiiiiive wrote:I don't want to put the Moog Ring Modulator in competition, nor start a analogue vs. digital debate, but I must say the EHX Ring Thing has a very cool feature: holding the secondary footswitch for one second allows to tune the internal modulator carrier on the incoming signal pitch.

As said the original poster, having the pitches machting is not that relevant when just playing one note. But in situations where the tonality changes, being able to tune the device so that the effect stays "correctly dissonant" is making the Ring Thing the most musically handy ring modulator I know.
The only thing I get tired of when it comes to EHX stuff is the shoddy build quality. Almost all of my EHX collection is the older/classic chassis/higher voltage stuff, which I very much favor to their newer lineup. I have a few of their newer pedals (although not the Ring Thing,) and I'll tell ya, I'm not too impressed with the quality of jacks, or the build quality in general now. Even their older classic stuff breaks down all the time (personal expreience...and I do take care of my stuff.) Heck, my Deluxe Memory Man and 16SDD will just start making/adding noise out of nowhere...off or on, or even when a knob is in a certain position. I had to open up my Big Muff w/TW (mind you it was brand new) and sand down the area of the encosure where a small cheap spring makes the ground contact for the entire circuit....plastic jacks, etc..not impressed. Just one thing after another with EHX (not to mention their customer service department, whic is about the biggest joke ever.) I'm replacing most of my EHX "go-to" pedals with Moogerfoogers. To be fair, I've been rockin' EHX stuff for years, and there is a wonderful appeal to some of their designs (especially the classic EHX stuff)....but let's just say for me personally it was a revelation and relief in all areas once I got into Moogerfoogers. That being said, the new(er) EHX Super Ego is awfull tempting to me as a guitar player. I don't know, there's just something about the inside and out of Moogerfoogers that scream build quality....which is very important to me. Also, sonically they destroy anyting I've used in the past.

That being said, I''m sure the Ring Thing (being digital and all) can indeed offer a different or even wider pallet than the 102. EHX has always been pretty good about the overall sound of their products. My 16SDD sounds pretty darn warm, and I love that.
Little Phatty Stage II, Minitaur, MF-105, MF-103, MF-102, MF-101, Mesa/Boogie Mark IV, EVH 5150III 50 Watt, EVM12L Speakers, ESP Eclipse-II FR, USA Charvel So-Cal, Squier Vintage Modified Surf Stratocaster, Alesis MidiVerb 4, and tons of Electro Harmonix.

NuGaia
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:46 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by NuGaia » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:17 pm

Woah, I've been out of the loop! Thanks for all of the feedback! Yes, I will get the excel sheets up for y'all. I'm booked pretty heavy this weekend, so probably early next week I'll have a more complete database for you to draw from. Gonna try a few new intervals, and create a video demo. Got a friend of mine who is a fine engineer, we'll see if we can get some quirky spectrum analysis, or other ways to view the information. Create a ring mod infographic! Thanks for the support, see ya soon!

CJF
"Without music, life would be a mistake." - Nietzsche
christopherjfriesen.wix.com/illlp
http://www.soundcloud.com/nugaia

calaverasgrande
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 3:43 pm
Contact:

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by calaverasgrande » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:11 am

Funny trick, I tried playing the carrier osc from my Roland Sh09, bringing it back into the Rolands aux in. Roland and Moog are supposed to be octave/volt right?
Non-musical results. :roll:
I wonder if there is a way to trim the carrier osc to be closer to the actual scale of notes?
Taurus III, Digitone, Dark Energy, OB6, MG1, Grandmother, Blofeld

NuGaia
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:46 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by NuGaia » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:51 am

Greetings, here's my next installment. More to come

Videos:
Ring Modulation Nation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fizc8F1Mh9M

Addendum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1GYVphPR9k

JPEGs
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6BAUiF ... sp=sharing
calaverasgrande wrote:Roland and Moog are supposed to be octave/volt right?
Non-musical results. :roll:
I wonder if there is a way to trim the carrier osc to be closer to the actual scale of notes?
I don't know calaveras, I'm curious as to what you mean by the octave : volt ratio. Could you explain more or refer me somewhere this is being discussed.
"Without music, life would be a mistake." - Nietzsche
christopherjfriesen.wix.com/illlp
http://www.soundcloud.com/nugaia

calyx93
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:53 am
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by calyx93 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:17 pm

calaverasgrande wrote:Funny trick, I tried playing the carrier osc from my Roland Sh09, bringing it back into the Rolands aux in. Roland and Moog are supposed to be octave/volt right?
Non-musical results. :roll:
I wonder if there is a way to trim the carrier osc to be closer to the actual scale of notes?
I had a similar problem when I first cv-ed a Minibrute to the FreqBox as a second oscillator or audio rate filter FM modulation source - very uneven scaling. Glad I had a CP-251 for the mixer offset and attenuators - helped out immensely. Now the FB is in perfect tune with the MB over several octaves and I can shift the overall FB pitch over an extremely wide range. I do have the Moog ring mod, but haven't tried it out with the MB yet in a tuned ring mod configuration, but would imagine that the CP-251 would achieve the desired results.

Will try it out tonight and report results - been craving some metallic sounds.
“I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window to window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance.” - Rimbaud

User avatar
GregAE
Posts: 1591
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:44 pm
Location: In the studio, of course

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by GregAE » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:36 am

NuGaia wrote:Hello again Everyone,
up late again trying to save the universe! I've got a special treat for you all tonight. Ring Modulation. As a few of you have heard, I now own a Moog MF-102. I've been trying to research how players use this pedal, or others that function in the same schematic. To be honest, it's been rather rough, trenching through the internet looking for settings, tips, tricks, anything and coming up with enough of the picture that I figured out how to fill my gaps.
If you haven't already done so, you might want to take a look at my 'Lord of the Ring Modulator' article on KnobTweak. It's been around for awhile and many folks have found it helpful. Find it here:

KnobTweak > Files > Moogerfoogers > MF102 Ring Modulator > Lord of the RingMod.pdf

- Greg

rove
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:55 pm

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by rove » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:30 pm

calyx93 wrote: I do have the Moog ring mod, but haven't tried it out with the MB yet in a tuned ring mod configuration, but would imagine that the CP-251 would achieve the desired results.

Will try it out tonight and report results - been craving some metallic sounds.

I have the Ring Mod, the Minibrute and the CP-251, wondering if you have had any luck getting the ring mod tuned to the MB? I have tried offsetting and attenuating the pitch out cv from the brute, but can't get the ring mod to track accurately at all. Any advice on that would be much appreciated, thanks.

rove
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:55 pm

Re: Ring Modulation Nation

Post by rove » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:28 pm

I figured it out: minibrute pitch cv out to attenuator in, attenuator out to mixer in, then I would tune the ring mod to the minibrute, check an octave up and adjust level and offset in the mixer until I was able to get the correct v/octave interval. Probably don't need the attenuator, but I wanted to have maximum range for tuning so next time will try without, as well as tuning to different intervals (3rds, 5ths, etc). The Ring modulator oscillator adds a great tone to the minibrute--different waveshape than what is available onboard. Very cool.

Post Reply