Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LFO)

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Edoardo_P
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Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LFO)

Post by Edoardo_P » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:18 pm

Hello, :mrgreen:

I'm an electric guitarist looking for "his" sound.

I'm not that much into electronic music, but I think an analog synth/oscillator/waveshaper is what I need to get that square-wave, Moog-like sound I'm looking for.

Plus, I'd need also an octave generator. (sub-octave and an upper-octave)


I don't know if the MF107 and its VCO (with the sync ON, only!) - and maybe another moogerfooger, such as the analog delay, (I'm interested in its LFO with waveforms) are what I'm looking for...


I know that there are more "guitar-meant" effects (pedals) that feature a VCO and/or octave generation, but they seem of lower quality and can be hooked up to a guitar only, which would be a con.

I've also noticed most of this guitar-only effects (pedals) - and the Little Phatty - feature a "glide" control... What is it for, exactly?


Could you help me?

Is there anything that the MF107 or the MF107+MF104 can't do that a single guitar pedal can?

May also the Little Phatty do the job? A couple of Moogerfooger have not a much different price!



Thanks!

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Vsyevolod
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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by Vsyevolod » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:53 pm

If you have a specific sound in mind, I wouldn't point you towards a MoogerFooger pedal. If you've tried a MoogerFooger and like what they do, then there's the match. Check out all the videos that people put up. If you like what you hear, then go for it. If instead you want a certain sound, listen to more videos and try a bunch of stuff before settling on what turns you on. Otherwise you may just be setting yourself up for disappointment.

Stephen




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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by Alien8 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:42 pm

Welcome to the world of tone. Like mentioned above - watch lots of vids, try pedals at stores etc. that's how we've all done it. Oh yeah, expect that in a year or three you will go through it again ;)

Some directions to begin your search:

Moogerfooger 107 - not very friendly to guitar on its own, needs at minimum a compressor in front of it to create a more flat linear attack and sustain curve. It does its own sound really well once dialed in.

Have a serious look at the EHX MicroSynth. I would recommend the Bass version. You can ignore the marketing hype with "guitar" pedals, consider them effect pedals that work on all sources. Some are "tuned" to respond better to certain frequencies, but this is not something to hold yourself back with. The EHX will give you everything you mentioned to be seeking, and with an added EQ pedal covers A LOT of ground - everything from raw square wave tone to volume fades, filter sweeps and octave up / down sounds. Remember BASS version.

The Pigtronix Mothership and another one of their pedals might be of interest.

Dr scientist & SubDecay also make pedals that may work for what you need.

Further, there are digital products from Line 6, Digitech etc that can do what you want.

My recommendation: buy the EHX, use it, learn it well, and see if it makes you want something different, like a sputtery fuzz, or more pronounced octave up etc. This is a good starting point pedal (and a secret weapon of many artists).
Vibration emanates from all things, even nothing. Using awareness to translate vibration into "music" is something that I am whole heartedly grateful for.

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stiiiiiiive
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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by stiiiiiiive » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:33 pm

Ditto.

Edoardo, if you are considering buying a Phatty just for getting a synth tone out of your guitar, I'd advise to try something cheaper and handier first.

The 107 will give you something with more grit, less "squary" I'd say. The 104, although having LFO with cool waveforms, won't synthesize anything. The LFO is only connected to the delay time. No LFO out.

The EHX BassMicroSynth is certainly something you may like. The other references above as well. Check the EHX website, in the "pitch/octave/synth" page: they are creative guys...
Oh, a website I tend to get back to often is crushthebutton.be (here are their product in the style you may be interested in). It's a Belgian online shop. I'm not saying buy there, but they have a good choice as well.
Maybe some US have too, though. That being, I don't even know where you are located.

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tommyecho
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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by tommyecho » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:23 pm

all awesome suggestions.

Edoardo, I started out with the EHX POG2 and the MF 105M midimurf pedal. I'm a guitarist as well, and I was just looking for somethings to really expand the sound of my electric guitar. The murf is probably not what you are looking for, but the POG2 is another good alternative for a pitch shifter. When I was first looking into this stuff, I was watching lots of youtube demos of the various pedals, so I'd recommend doing that. "death by audio" may be another place to look. Haven't tried their stuff personally, but you might find something there! Also, check out Koma Electronic.

Good luck!
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Edoardo_P
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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by Edoardo_P » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:09 pm

Thank you all very much.

Actually, I've been watching some demos before asking for your help.


Both the EHX MicroSynth and the Pigtronix Mothership get very close to what I am looking for but my doubts are:

EHX Micro-Synth: it's not a synth, as it does not feature a VCO, it is a filter, and I've read around about some quality issues.

Mothership: square wave either "on" or "off" only. lower octave only.
Whammy and ring mod: I couldn't care less. It seems much more popular and acclaimed though.


So I've come into the MF107; I'd already have the stuff to compress and/or pre-amp the signal. It has less feature than the others but I thought that if I added some other effect (such as a pitch shifter), its versatility would have turned out more helpful in a chain with other effects.

I thought about a whole slim phatty indeed as buying two good effects is not so cheaper than getting a slim phatty, with all its modulation options and envelope generators indeed. But can I synch the SP oscillators with the guitar?

@Stiiiiiiive: thanks again.
Any European online shop is a big help. :)


@tommyecho:
I didn't know "Death By Audio", nor Koma elektronik. The first one seem to have a couple of products that may suit me :D while the second offers too
"difficult" stuff at the moment :mrgreen:


BTW: this effect I'm looking for does not have to be a pedal. I'd use it at home. On the other hand, It must be analog.


Thanks again

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David Smyth
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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by David Smyth » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:29 pm

Edoardo_P wrote:can I synch the SP oscillators with the guitar?


Normally, only with a 13-pin Pickup of some kind installed on your guitar, such as the Roland GK-3 running into a MIDI decoder such as the Roland GI-20 (possibly discontinued) or the Roland GR-55, using the MIDI output.

Another option (which doesn't require a MIDI pickup installation) is the Sonuus G2M, but I've heard people have had mixed results in terms of reliable tracking etc.

Although a different result, you can run the guitar signal into the SP's "Audio Input", which will put your signal through the SP's (low-pass) filter section only (not syncing the oscillators) - which would be a pretty expensive option for a low-pass-wah-like effect, especially when the MF-101 is available.

MIDI controlling software/hardware synthesizer modules via guitar is definitely a harder thing to get right than simply running through effects pedals..

Regards,
David Smyth
NZ
Minimoog Voyager XL, Little Phatty Stage II + CV Output Mod, 2x Slim Phatty, Minitaur, MP-201, EP-2, 2x CP-251, MF-102, MF-104M, MF-107

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tommyecho
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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by tommyecho » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:37 pm

I just heard about this the other day. It's a new program that is supposed to allow you to use a normal guitar as a midi guitar. I'm about to test it out, and I'll let you know how it goes. I completely agree with everything David Smyth said in the above post, but if this thing works better than previous options, it could open things up :)

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=359095

Update: I just tested it out, and it works pretty great. Of course, this sort of thing always introduces a bit of latency, but the tracking is pretty amazing! I prefer to just play the keyboard, myself, but it's fun to know that this is out there
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Crowyote
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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by Crowyote » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:22 am

Edoardo,

MY first rec: Get a Moog Guitar.

With the Ladder Filter and CV input you can have unlimited tonal shaping at your fingertips.

Then get a CP-251 or a another control processor like the Broadcaster by Co-Pilot FX and plug it into the CV input.

Alternatively, I must disagree with tommy and tell you that the MURF has been my first and most committed love among tha foogas. It can do a ton of interesting things resembling flangers, panners, sequencers, wahs, etc. Plus it has a LFO input to control and shape the sweep of the various patterns.

The 107 has been the only fooger I've bought and sold twice. Cool sound initially, but seems quite limited with guitar. The envelope follower can be very very glitchy w/ guitar. It seems to be general consensus that it's not the best MF pedal for the guitarist.

Another great option is the MF-103 . . . with super slow speeds you can acheive with the Triangle wave LFO allow it to be used as a comb filter. Also you can plug in a second sweep LFO to make it outpace the MU-Tron Bi-phase.

I'm also quite intrigued by the Subdecay Starlight DLX Flanger, among the other DLX pedals. I've never owned one, but how do I GAS for them!

One last rec . . . the SoundSubstance Fuzzmulator. I know Dale, the designer, and he created a pedal with 4 separate consistent waveshapes (non-oscillating) to mix with and hone your guitar's signal. It's been on just about everything I've recorded because I can dial in a good wet-dry ratio that really fattens up my tone. Sounds similar to the EHX MicroSynth, but it does not make your sound as sterile. (according to my old Bass player who bought and sold the EHX MS in one week)

What ever you get make sure it has a broad tonal range for the LFO or waveshape mix amount, you don't necessarily want to eat your guitar signal.


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stiiiiiiive
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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by stiiiiiiive » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:34 am

Edoardo, what follows might be obvious, but I've read some of your posts letting me think that it is not.

You seem to believe that some boxes that features some of the usual components of a synth will provide you with the sound of a sunth. If you think so, you might be disapointed. In others terms, it's not because the 104M or 103 have an LFO or the 107 has a VCO that they will make your guitar have the sound these particular components achieve in a synth.

Substractive synthesis in a nutshell…
Here is a quite simplified description of the audio signal flow:
- First component: the oscillators, incarned by VCOs in Moog synths. They are the initial source and produce a signal usually rich in harmonics.
- Second component: the filter, incarned in a Low Pass in the Moog instruments. It allows to remove some harmonics from the initially rich signal, the one produced by the oscilator(s).
- Third component: the amp, incarned by a VCA in Moog synths. It is usually associated with an envelope so that the volume can evolve in time.

Besides the audio signal, you can have other signals that control the different component described above. These signals are generated by different controllers (amongst which lie the LFOs). It's said that a controller (source) modulates a parameter (destination), that is it replaces your hand tweaking the knob for this parameter.
- An LFO allows to replaces your hand turning the knob periodically.
- An envelope is another way of having a parameter evolving in time, not periodically this time.
- The note you play on a keyboard will also modulate the pitch of some oscillator.
- ...

Now you have the basic concept. BTW, flangers, phasers or even chorus embed LFOs. They modulates delay times, just as in the 104M.




NOW!... what you seem to want is obtaining a synth-like sound with your guitar, your guitar being the source of the audio.

If you plug it into a Phatty, it will take the place of the oscillators, BUT NOT CONTROL THEM. That is, it will go through the filter and the amp without interacting with the component that produces that "square wave" you're after.
With the 107, you're closer to the solution: although the pitch of the VCO is still not controlled by the note you pluck, a feature called "sync" tend to simulate this. Still not what you are after though.


Here is what I think you need:

- Either an intrument/FX that allows you to control an oscillator with th pitch your guitar produces and the volume of it with the volume of the sound out of your guitar (BTW this is a MONOPHONIC process, most of the time: you won't be able to play more that one note). This is not very common. The Korg MS20 does it, then you can try software but it's not analogue.

- Or an FX that is able to process your guitar sound in order to transform it into a square wave. The usual method here, used in fuzz, is to over amplify the guitar signal until it is totally distorted: the chopped off waveform is very squary then. Ithink the MicroSynth is kind of working like that, with a bit more process to get a cleaner sound.



Voilà. I hope it helps. I hope it does not make things too complicated nor breaks your dream :wink:
You may be interested in reading some deeper substractive synthesis documentation, like online tutorials.

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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by ricknboogie » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:22 pm

Stiiiive has nailed it on the head. So many times, I read a young player is looking to reproduce the "sounds" of a synthesizer, using a bass or guitar as the primary instrument. It just doesn't work out that way, unless you can be satisfied with a synth "effects" pedal, or combinations of fx, like fuzz, octave down, and envelope filter. But, to truly get to making all the many various synthy sounds, there is simply no substitute for a keyboard synthesizer. Plugging a guitar into a Little Phatty will only get you a filter effect, which can be achieved with a filter pedal just as easily, and alot cheaper. I would suggest that you stick with guitar, and use whatever fx you like to use, but consider buying a synthesizer to play what you seem to be looking for. Best of luck.

Edoardo_P
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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by Edoardo_P » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:25 pm

:o :o :o

@Stiiiiiive Thanks so much for the great explanation!!!



Guys, thank you all very much but I think I shall apologize, I haven't been clear in the first time :oops:

I do not want to play a synth, am looking for a sound, very much like a moog sound ... Of course there is no "THE" Moog sound but I mean...

Without having to turn knobs while playing, in order of importance:
- Yes, fuzzy of course, but I find most standalone fuzz boxes too noisy.
- the attack must be late/slow or there should be no guitar-like "attack" at all
- Sub octave. And Higher octave (yes that may be poliphonic though)
- A little "phaser-like" maybe, but no jet-like flanging sound

So I thought that having a VCO in the chain would have got me there.
Again, I'm not very much into electronic music, I still have doubts on the meanings of "modular", "envelope", "CV"... :cry:


Now I have a question/doubt: what does the VCO in the Pigtronix Mothership pedal do, exactly? Is it to make that pedal so popular?


(Thanks also for all the other producers you guys mentioned, I had not heard of most of them...)

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stiiiiiiive
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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by stiiiiiiive » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:47 am

Edoardo, a VCO is a sound source just as your guitar. It's usually pitch controlled via a keyboard. However, you can control it in other ways, one of which is through a system that detect the pitch of an incoming signal and set the VCO pitch on the same value in real time. The Mothership does exaclty this (this is what I mentionned earlier giving the MS20 example…)

So I think the Mothership is one of the component of what you are trying to set up: it's the one that will make your guitar produce a synth tone. Monophonic!
Then you'll need a filter: here you can use a MoogerFooger 101, obviously the right candidate.
The 101 will take the amp duties in charge too.

That being said, I don't have the EHX MicroSynth features in mind but it may do the whole job as a unique box.

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stiiiiiiive
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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by stiiiiiiive » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:53 am

stiiiiiiive wrote:That being said, I don't have the EHX MicroSynth features in mind but it may do the whole job as a unique box.


Yes, it kind of does the job. Watch some demos to see whether it sounds as you want :)

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Re: Guitarist needs to shape his soundwaves (MF107 and/or LF

Post by Edoardo_P » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:40 am

Yes, the EHX MicroSynthhas a lot of features, I think I'll look for a one in demo at the store...

Why should I need the MF101 after the Pigtronix Mothership? :mrgreen: :oops: Does it do the stuff of the "filter" section of the Microsynth?

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